Calling the HVAC Guys - 4 quotes, 4 different brands

[dscl]

Hello guys! I know close to nothing about HVAC, but do know it's time to replace my AC. So I got some recommendations on companies in my area and set out to get some quotes.

From the four different companies each one quoted back a different model. Let's assume all things are equal (the company experience/reputation/quality of work, statement of work, price, etc…) are any of these units better than the others? Any of them I should avoid?

Carrier COMFORT 16[Up to 16.5 SEER] 24ABC6
Lennox 13ACX[13 SEER]
Day & Night 13 SEER R410A (w/Heavy duty hail guard and sound deadening blanket)
Rheem 13AJN[Up to 14.5 SEER]

I appreciate the guidance!

 

[mcroom]

The higher the SEER rating the more energy efficient the unit will be and cost less in electricity. I was certified by Carrier in 83' as a heat pump specialist (so I am a little bias) but have been away from the field for about 12 years. Have you done any online reviews of these units? I would go with a high SEER and have the company provide some years of preventive maintenance as part of the deal. Good luck and I wish I could be of more help.

 

[apnutter]

We just put a daikin in our addition. It's a whisper quits, 24 seer unit. Love it. There are so many settings on the unit.

Can't speak for the units u listed but can say I like mine and would recommend it.

 

[3/5King]

Unless you are buying a higher seer model because you care about the environment, you will never recoup the money invested in the cost of a higher seer model. (The same thing goes for high end furnace models 90+ etc.)

I'd go with an R410A model because they phased out the production of R-22 about 2 years ago and in the future it will be harder to have your unit charged if need be. (They still sell Freon but once it's gone, it's gone)

Carrier and Lennox are higher end brands. Day and Night is made by ICP; ICP is owned by Carrier (supposedly middle of the road products) and Rheem falls in the same category.

Now as for which one you should go with, I would go with a lower costing model. IMO the time that a unit is going to last depends on how well the company installed it and how well it cools your house depends on how well the system as a whole was designed for your house (proper size of furnace/ACunit line set sizing and ac coil, proper load calculations, duct size and number of openings. How well your home is insulated plays a huge roll as well, in perceived performance.) a condensing unit by itself is not going to adversely effect the cooling of your home. All aspects/components play a married roll in the proper cooling of your home. I'm mostly telling you this because some salesman will tell you that one unit is better than the other and you'll be X amount happier with it, when in some cases, your system might not be designed to work well with a higher seer unit.

If you go with a higher seer unit, the coil inside your home (that sits above or below the furnace) needs to be replaced as well. AC coils have a higher seer rating too. Seers= the amount of coils that the condenser and coil contain. 10 seer is 10 loops, 16 seer is 16 loops. The theory behind them is that the longer the freon has to travel through the coils, the more heat it can pull from your home before returning back to the coil inside.. Same thing with the ac coil inside. (Collects more heat from the air as the freon works it's way to the outside unit.)

To get back to your original question, I think that a carrier or Lenox unit will be quiter than a Rheem or day and night but IMO what you will get out of them efficiency wise will not compare to the up charge. Most all companies carry a 10 year warranty on their equipment and to have that warranty stand, you must have regular yearly preventative maintenance performed (a lot of companies you can get away without it but that's the rules of the warranty... Just like a car) in my experience, less is more. The more features the unit has, the more likely it is for something to go wrong and cost more to fix. I always recommend single stage units with 10 seer rating (a lot of companies are moving away from 10 seers nowadays and a company might nt even offer it as higher seer becomes the norm) but like I said before, a higher seer unit will be more efficient but it won't be saving you any money in the long run....you will never recoup the amount that the unit "saves" you.

The key things you should be looking for when replacing your AC unit (or furnace) is as follows.

-Company does a manual J load calculation of your home to determine the proper sizing of your equipment and verifies that what they are going to install will work well with the system you have now or that your current system is proper for your home in the first place (a lot of times it's not because of home builders going with the cheapest quotes possible when building the houses)

-The AC Unit should be put on brackets if possible and leveled. If not on brackets, the ground should be leveled and the unit set on a leveled AC pad. If a unit is un level, the oils inside the compressor will be un level and could cause premature burnout of the compressor.

-The line set connections need to be brazed and not soldered. Solder connections will eventually separate and leak
(Most times from vibration of the unit) where as a braze is a weld and will never leak if done right from the beginning.

-when the unit is installed and the installer is pulling a vacuum, he/she needs to use a micrometer gauge in line with his charging gauges and pull a vacuum of -500microns. Also needs to verify that it holds at -500microns. (This is when all the impurities are pulled from the line set and AC coils. The lower the system is pulled, the less impurities are in the lines) this is the recommendation of any manufacturer but a lot of companies will slack on this part. This part of the install also verifies that there are no leaks in the system. If the gauge does not pull down to -500microns or will not hold -500m this means that the unit is not 100% sealed.

-I personally recommend that the line set be replaced if the previous connections are soldered and not brazed. Rather than just reconnecting the old one to the new unit. Also a suction line and liquid line filter should be installed. (Small oil filter like cartridge brazed in line with the high side and low side line set.)

-making sure the installer knows how to properly charge your unit. (There is a formula used to come up with this number) if the unit is improperly charged, it will effect the way it works and will not cool the house properly.

I know this is long winded but in my 10 years in the field, I've seen a lot of hacks (even working for supposed high end companies) and it's the difference between a system that works well and lasts or a system you are unhappy with and causes you problems in most times the immediate future.

Let me know if there's anything else you need to know.

 

[cgraunke]

Looks like 3/5King has a pretty in depth answer for ya, but I figured I should post up what my buddy sent back since I had already reached out to him. Good luck Sir!
(response below)

Super loaded question! But i'll give it a try. Most of the legit brands have a 10year part warranty standard , avoid the ones that dont. 10year labor warrany costs vary by manufacturer. Chose the seer rating based on a payback period that makes sense to you (is it worth paying an extra $1000 if you wont get the money back in operation cost savings for 15 years)? Check rebates from your power company. There are a ton of operating cost calculators on google , use one to figure out the cost savings and payback to decide what seer you want. Dont judge a book by the cover, just cuz a service guy is in a harley tshirt and a camo hat doesn't mean they are sketchy. Just cuz a service guy has a new van and is in spotless clothes doesn't mean they're legit. I've found that the biggest crooks usually are the clean cut guys more often than the dirty guys. Don't waste time reading online reviews, too many idiots give inaccurate reviews. All brands have had bad models at some point, what matters is how they handled the situation, that being said goodman/amana really steps up to the plate when need be. The icp corp in the past at least has denied problems . (I own a hvac company.)

 

[3/5King]

Yeah, he speaks the truth. I was going to have a short answer but that was as short as I felt I could be. I've seen a lot of bad work and want to make sure my fellow BOTL go in prepared with facts and knowledge. The way a unit is installed and sized it trumps make and model. Some people like peace of mind with name brand/high end. I will say that most high end brands will operate quiter. (If that's important to you)

 

[Jfire]

3/5 if I may thread jack my mans post for one sec..... Why do some units start ups sound like Tesla is taking his coil for a spin???? My unit on my current house on start up sounds like it's going to come thru the wall.

 

[3/5King]

Could be overcharged. Refrigerant slugging back to the compressor. Copland compressor plates rattling. the compressor has a weak spring that holds the top plate down and until it runs for a very short time it rattles and settles in. Could be a bad fan capacitor. Really depends on the unit and the noise.

 

[Jfire]

Could be overcharged. Refrigerant slugging back to the compressor. Copland compressor plates rattling. the compressor has a weak spring that holds the top plate down and until it runs for a very short time it rattles and settles in. Could be a bad fan capacitor. Really depends on the unit and the noise.

To me sounds electrical in nature. And only last 3 seconds or so. Kind of that heavy electrical "clutch" type noise. Are some units just that loud?

 

[King Kill 33]

Could be overcharged. Refrigerant slugging back to the compressor. Copland compressor plates rattling. the compressor has a weak spring that holds the top plate down and until it runs for a very short time it rattles and settles in. Could be a bad fan capacitor. Really depends on the unit and the noise.

To me sounds electrical in nature. And only last 3 seconds or so. Kind of that heavy electrical "clutch" type noise. Are some units just that loud?

That does sound like it could be a start capacitor on the fan motor.

 

[3/5King]

If the start cap. Is going bad, the motor is under high strain on start up. If the compressor is slugged on start up from liquid feeding back into it, it's extremely noisy as it purges out on start up. Some units are just really noisy. It's one of those things you have to observe and check out in person.

 

[dscl]

WOW! Thanks for all the feedback people

So from what I've seen this seems to be the best deal so far so please let me know your thoughts/concerns

Carrier COMFORT 16[Up to 16.5 SEER] 24ABC6
Install above 3 ton R-410a condensing unit
Install and level on existing brackets or new pad if unit wont fit
Install 3 ton R-410a N-Coil
Install new line set (brazed connections)
All other necessary sheet metal, electrical, and materials to complete
Vacuum, leak check, charge and place unit in service.
Comes with 20 year parts warranty, 20 year labor warranty, 10 year compressor warranty

Cost: $3,218 (includes all taxes, etc)

Is this a good deal?

 

[3/5King]

WOW! Thanks for all the feedback people

So from what I've seen this seems to be the best deal so far so please let me know your thoughts/concerns

Carrier COMFORT 16[Up to 16.5 SEER] 24ABC6
Install above 3 ton R-410a condensing unit
Install and level on existing brackets or new pad if unit wont fit
Install 3 ton R-410a N-Coil
Install new line set (brazed connections)
All other necessary sheet metal, electrical, and materials to complete
Vacuum, leak check, charge and place unit in service.
Comes with 20 year parts warranty, 20 year labor warranty, 10 year compressor warranty

Cost: $3,218 (includes all taxes, etc)

Is this a good deal?

Damn...Sounds too good to be true. What company is that through if you don't mind me asking? (And I'll say that I stand by my list above as for what To expect out of your install)

 

[3/5King]

That 20 year parts and labor is unheard of (to me at least)

 

[dscl]

Damn...Sounds too good to be true. What company is that through if you don't mind me asking? (And I'll say that I stand by my list above as for what To expect out of your install)

Okay so I got one more quote that seems to be competitive so here they both are. Other than the unit the offers are essentially the same. Both come highly recommended and have great Angie's List ratings. Your opinion is highly welcome.

Official Heating & Cooling - $3,218
Install Carrier COMFORT 16[Up to 16.5 SEER] 24ABC6
Install and level on existing brackets or new pad if unit wont fit
Install 3 ton R-410a N-Coil
Install new line set (brazed connections)
All other necessary sheet metal, electrical, and materials to complete
Vacuum, leak check, charge and place unit in service.
Comes with 20 year parts warranty, 20 year labor warranty, 10 year compressor warranty

McHenry Heating & Air, Inc. - $3,350
Install Trane XR16 [16 SEER]
Install and level on existing brackets or new pad if unit wont fit
Install 3 ton R-410a A-Coil
Install new line set (brazed connections)
All other necessary sheet metal, electrical, and materials to complete
Vacuum, leak check, charge and place unit in service.
Comes with 15 year parts warranty, 15 year labor warranty, 10 year compressor warranty
*Only company that did the j load calculation


One other question too... I've read that the N-Coils on the Carriers can be problematic if not installed perfectly. Is this true and does it factor into making a decision?

 

[rdomfoto]

Dave (3/5), thanks for answering Jay's question so well - I've bookmarked the thread because I'm pretty certain a new unit is in my future in the next year or two.

 

[xddco]

I am coming in late on this.. but I live in South Florida and I can tell you that going from a 10 SEER to 16 SEER 3 ton unit paid for itself in the first year. It cut my utility bill by 30% AND I run my house a degree lower now and still reap that savings. I am a mechanical engineer and have been a Facilities Maintenance Director for the past 17 years... at two Fortune 100 companies and the 6th largest school district in the U.S. In my last job, I was responsible for all the maintenance at more than 250 schools, 2000 portable classrooms and lots of office space....with more than 6000 HVAC units (with an HVAC division of more than 100 employees). We bought 100's of units of all different sizes every year. (That's not a typo...6,000+ units). I would buy the Trane unit and the price you are getting is EXCELLENT! Trane has some good 18-20 SEER units, too. We do use larger Carrier units, but our 2-5 ton Trane units were more reliable and lasted longer than the Carriers. My $0.02.

 

[3/5King]

I will second that in my exp. Trane is definitely the best quality I've installed. Their engineering is smart too. A lot of times you're installing a piece of equipment wondering who the hell designed this?? I still am waiting for a gas valve that ports out the bottom as to be multi directional.

 

[havana1]

You should notice a big decrease in elect bill if going from your older a/c to a 16seer unit. The Carrier is a fine unit and that is probably what I will replace my heat pump with. Nothing at all wrong with Rheem/ Ruud equipment either.
Those are great quotes and I would have a hard time beating them. Are you sure that includes labor/ installlation? As far as the debate over which units are more reliable......all I can say is after big thunder storms roll through this area the units I would have to service most were/are Trane. You can always count on the compressor run capacitor blowing......if you keep one handy then it's no big deal.

I would go with the longest/ best warranty, JMHO.