Extra fermentation
- Thread starter James
- Start date
Btw, the whole thing about "extra fermentation" is a marketing thing.
Tobacco is either fermented properly or it is not.
People that write books about the first and second then third fermentation really are simplifying the process so it is digestible by consumers and cigar marketers just use it to spin a story.
We often have to ferment tobacco 5+ times if you use a rest period in between to designate a fermentation cycle.
Also, extra fermentation is not necessarily a good time, over fermenting is as big a sin as under fermenting - the bottom line is the tobacco is ready when it is ready.
So to answer your question: MOST high quality handmade premium cigars are made with tobaccos that undergo the very same process as those used in Cohiba.
Sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but it is total BS imo.
BR,
Steve Saka
CEO, Drew Estate
Tobacco is either fermented properly or it is not.
People that write books about the first and second then third fermentation really are simplifying the process so it is digestible by consumers and cigar marketers just use it to spin a story.
We often have to ferment tobacco 5+ times if you use a rest period in between to designate a fermentation cycle.
Also, extra fermentation is not necessarily a good time, over fermenting is as big a sin as under fermenting - the bottom line is the tobacco is ready when it is ready.
So to answer your question: MOST high quality handmade premium cigars are made with tobaccos that undergo the very same process as those used in Cohiba.
Sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but it is total BS imo.
BR,
Steve Saka
CEO, Drew Estate
Saka, laying down the law.
It is all basically marketing to the uneducated... like how Miller lite is "triple hops-brewed".... ALL Beer has 3 hop additions. They just market themselves as having a special process that is actually standard, and the ignorant consumer thinks they are doing something different.
It is all basically marketing to the uneducated... like how Miller lite is "triple hops-brewed".... ALL Beer has 3 hop additions. They just market themselves as having a special process that is actually standard, and the ignorant consumer thinks they are doing something different.
Jfire
BoM 9/9' 9/11' 8/12'
Saka,
So are you saying authors like MRN with the theory of "Final fermention" months to years later are just made up hypothesis? I agree that tobacco is either ready or not when you guys(top producers of quality NCs) say it is... Obviously seeing Pepins and the DE factory has helped me with that notion. But as a novice cigar smoker that statement intruigs me and has me thinking that books like the "Post Revoultion Bible" and the "The Great Book of the Habano" were not only a waste of my time but of my money as well. Also if this statement is tru then maybe Pepin needs to look at his final fermentation decisions/process again. His product imo has been off gasing a good amount of amonia months to a year plus after releasing it to the market. (last 2 years or so) Only to be opened by consumers (some here on this board) to find out that the boxes have a very strong smell of amonia to them. If this tobacco was already in its final fermentation or finally fermented, wouldn't it have very little if any in it ammonia in it? Or would it indeed, even after being sold, still finishing that months to years long process of "final fermentation"
Regards,
Jfire
So are you saying authors like MRN with the theory of "Final fermention" months to years later are just made up hypothesis? I agree that tobacco is either ready or not when you guys(top producers of quality NCs) say it is... Obviously seeing Pepins and the DE factory has helped me with that notion. But as a novice cigar smoker that statement intruigs me and has me thinking that books like the "Post Revoultion Bible" and the "The Great Book of the Habano" were not only a waste of my time but of my money as well. Also if this statement is tru then maybe Pepin needs to look at his final fermentation decisions/process again. His product imo has been off gasing a good amount of amonia months to a year plus after releasing it to the market. (last 2 years or so) Only to be opened by consumers (some here on this board) to find out that the boxes have a very strong smell of amonia to them. If this tobacco was already in its final fermentation or finally fermented, wouldn't it have very little if any in it ammonia in it? Or would it indeed, even after being sold, still finishing that months to years long process of "final fermentation"
Regards,
Jfire
ciggy
"TommyBoy"
Fantastic question Justin and my thoughts as well. I've been let down by DPG and other well known manufactures with the ammonia and low quality tobacco in order to rush production demands. Something just doesn't add up to the "Final Fermentation" process we hear about when compared to CC's.
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Cigary43
Just Another Ashhole
Marketing and Advertising is not a skill set...it's Snake Oil and the difference between what it was 200 years ago and today is the advent of photos and video and half naked girls surrounding the product to get men to use whatever is being sold.....cars, beer, cigars, jewelry, etc. Educating ones self in areas like cigars is very interesting because we can delve as deeply as we want to but as Mr. Saka has pointed out so eloquently....there's more BS being spread around than fertilizer. I've read MRN quite a bit and what he goes into is the subtle nuances of cigars that most of us just don't get into and that's fine. Most just want to pick up their cigars...light em and enjoy while some will want to explore the nether regions of what makes up a great cigar...the process...the science.
If we all paid as much attention to the reality of this hobby instead of the slogans and sales pitches of the Marketing People we'd be enjoying better cigars....take the bands off and smoke the cigar and you'll let your tastes decide what you like...not some schil who tells you what to like.
If we all paid as much attention to the reality of this hobby instead of the slogans and sales pitches of the Marketing People we'd be enjoying better cigars....take the bands off and smoke the cigar and you'll let your tastes decide what you like...not some schil who tells you what to like.
3 quick points:
Point #1:
The fact is that the authors of every cigar book I have ever read have been written by people who do not actually grow or work tobacco. I believe they are doing their best to share the info as they know it, but most of it is second hand at best and often many times removed from that. There is a ton of great info the books you mentioned, but I would not take anything written as gospel particularly when it comes to tobacco and manufacturing related details - including what I write.
Same is true of most cigar brand owners - very few actually do the real work of tobacco and cigars. It is ONE of the reasons why I personally admire Pete Johnson as he has always said, "I am not a cigar maker, I am cigar designer..." I think I have that quote right, regardless he is at least honest with his customers and does not try to pretend to be something he is not. The ironic part is Pete actually knows more than most of folks who claim to be this or that when it comes to cigars.
And while I am actually intimately involved in operating a large scale cigar factory in Nica, -I- am NOT the "end all, be all" when it comes to tobacco and cigar info, there is a lot of art in this science of handmade cigars. I try my best to share what I know as I know it, but it is not by any means the absolute. I am still learning things and it is impossible for me to know everything - I personally rely on the insight and experience of our Nica team every day. They are the ones who actually do the work day in and day out. I learn from our growers, I learn from other makers, and I learn from my personal experience. Opinions I have held have changed over the years and I am sure they will continue to evolve as time goes on.
Point #2:
On the ammonia issue as it relates to Pepin's cigars, it would be inappropriate of me to critic how Pepin works his tobacco. I respect Pepin, Jamie and their team and the work they do. It is one of the factories that we regularly take OUR own customer tour groups to see along with JDN and DE. Do I personally agree in lockstep with everything they do? Of course not, that is where the individual style and technique comes in that makes each factory unique in the products we make.
I do know that they make some exceptional cigars that I enjoy, I know that I pay attention when they talk and share info and I know I have learned things as benefit. Heck even JD and I don't always agree on some particulars when it comes to tobacco and cigars, this doesn't make either of us right or wrong - it just isn't that simple.
IMO, Pepin is exceptional cigar maker and I respect his work product immensely.
Point #3:
My PERSONAL take on the ammonia question: This is not a simple good/bad answer.
Ten years ago, I would have said all ammonia was bad, but now having worked hands on with tobacco I have learned it is a tradeoff. When you ferment tobacco to the point of no traces of ammonia, in particular heavy Cuban seed leaf, it can be at the expense of quite a bit of strength and flavor. Every cigar maker has to self-determine what is best for the style of cigar they wish to create.
IMO there is a point at which it better to not ferment some leaf varieties to this point of zero ammonia, that it is ideal to leave just a trace. It is a very fine line and impossible to describe in the written word. And depending on your sense of smell, what I consider a trace you might not detect at all or consider far too much. Everything is relative.
So ultimately only -you- can decide if the level of ammonia left in the leaf is a good or bad thing as it relates to your own smoking experience.
In conclusion:
I still believe the concept of "triple fermentation" is more sales pitch than reality.
I do not believe there has yet to be a truly authorative cigar book written when it comes to how air cured, black tobacco are actually fermented, worked, sorted, classified, utilized, etc. Many are informative, many are interesting, but none that I have read are truly detailed in the particulars in the reality of the entire process. I think it is highly unlikely such a book will ever be written given that the people who truly know are actually busy making doing the tasks themselves. Although we all do essentially the same thing, it is those little details that make each make unique and are regarded as factory and often, generational secrets.
I am wise enough to know that I do not know everything so whatever I may write is from my own perspective and experience and you should take it as you will.
Anyone that claims to supposedly know everything imo is full of shit.
Hope this adds to the conversation.
BR,
Steve Saka
CEO, Drew Estate
Point #1:
The fact is that the authors of every cigar book I have ever read have been written by people who do not actually grow or work tobacco. I believe they are doing their best to share the info as they know it, but most of it is second hand at best and often many times removed from that. There is a ton of great info the books you mentioned, but I would not take anything written as gospel particularly when it comes to tobacco and manufacturing related details - including what I write.
Same is true of most cigar brand owners - very few actually do the real work of tobacco and cigars. It is ONE of the reasons why I personally admire Pete Johnson as he has always said, "I am not a cigar maker, I am cigar designer..." I think I have that quote right, regardless he is at least honest with his customers and does not try to pretend to be something he is not. The ironic part is Pete actually knows more than most of folks who claim to be this or that when it comes to cigars.
And while I am actually intimately involved in operating a large scale cigar factory in Nica, -I- am NOT the "end all, be all" when it comes to tobacco and cigar info, there is a lot of art in this science of handmade cigars. I try my best to share what I know as I know it, but it is not by any means the absolute. I am still learning things and it is impossible for me to know everything - I personally rely on the insight and experience of our Nica team every day. They are the ones who actually do the work day in and day out. I learn from our growers, I learn from other makers, and I learn from my personal experience. Opinions I have held have changed over the years and I am sure they will continue to evolve as time goes on.
Point #2:
On the ammonia issue as it relates to Pepin's cigars, it would be inappropriate of me to critic how Pepin works his tobacco. I respect Pepin, Jamie and their team and the work they do. It is one of the factories that we regularly take OUR own customer tour groups to see along with JDN and DE. Do I personally agree in lockstep with everything they do? Of course not, that is where the individual style and technique comes in that makes each factory unique in the products we make.
I do know that they make some exceptional cigars that I enjoy, I know that I pay attention when they talk and share info and I know I have learned things as benefit. Heck even JD and I don't always agree on some particulars when it comes to tobacco and cigars, this doesn't make either of us right or wrong - it just isn't that simple.
IMO, Pepin is exceptional cigar maker and I respect his work product immensely.
Point #3:
My PERSONAL take on the ammonia question: This is not a simple good/bad answer.
Ten years ago, I would have said all ammonia was bad, but now having worked hands on with tobacco I have learned it is a tradeoff. When you ferment tobacco to the point of no traces of ammonia, in particular heavy Cuban seed leaf, it can be at the expense of quite a bit of strength and flavor. Every cigar maker has to self-determine what is best for the style of cigar they wish to create.
IMO there is a point at which it better to not ferment some leaf varieties to this point of zero ammonia, that it is ideal to leave just a trace. It is a very fine line and impossible to describe in the written word. And depending on your sense of smell, what I consider a trace you might not detect at all or consider far too much. Everything is relative.
So ultimately only -you- can decide if the level of ammonia left in the leaf is a good or bad thing as it relates to your own smoking experience.
In conclusion:
I still believe the concept of "triple fermentation" is more sales pitch than reality.
I do not believe there has yet to be a truly authorative cigar book written when it comes to how air cured, black tobacco are actually fermented, worked, sorted, classified, utilized, etc. Many are informative, many are interesting, but none that I have read are truly detailed in the particulars in the reality of the entire process. I think it is highly unlikely such a book will ever be written given that the people who truly know are actually busy making doing the tasks themselves. Although we all do essentially the same thing, it is those little details that make each make unique and are regarded as factory and often, generational secrets.
I am wise enough to know that I do not know everything so whatever I may write is from my own perspective and experience and you should take it as you will.
Anyone that claims to supposedly know everything imo is full of shit.
Hope this adds to the conversation.
BR,
Steve Saka
CEO, Drew Estate
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javajunkie
BoM July '12
so, like a chef, vinter, distiller, brewmaster, roaster... anyone who deals with making organic matter into tasty art: it is ready when it wants to be, and when i feel it is? o)
thanks, steve! always value the insider info!
thanks, steve! always value the insider info!