Cubans vs Non-Cubans: A THEORY

[MC808]

Tobacco is an agricultural product affected by primarily by its microclimate. Sun, soil, air and water all come into play in the growing of such a product. Add to that cultivation techniques, irrigation, fertilization and other human aspects influencing the final raw product. Bottom line, you can have the exact same seed and grow it in different locations of the world resulting in a different product.

Many look to Cuba as a classic growing area with a long history of tobacco cultivation and cigar production. Over a long period of time the cigars produced there have exhibited a track record for quality and thus have garnered international acclaim. That's why we use Cuban cigars as a reference. How often do we see reviews of a non-Cuban cigar being described as "Cubanesque." The same is true for other products such as wine. Many Pinot Noir producers around the world emulate the red wines of Burgundy for the same reason.

That being said, it is really up to you what you think is best, what you prefer. I welcome the diversity, especially now in this era of great cigars competing in the market. If I feel like it I can smoke a Cuban, Nicaraguan, or Dominican cigar. They are all very different and often very good. Just my 2 cents.

 

[dtbach]

I always liked California wines more than French and they are half the price. Looks like the same with cigars. Glad I like NC's at half the price.

I'm a retired Naval Officer also and do not intend to pursue any illegal activity. Someday I might try one, but for now I'm happy.

 

[cityblock25]

Its just another growing region in my eyes, nothing more and nothing less. All the major production countries produce terrible cigars and great cigars including cuba.

This, I've had good and bad cigars from all regions. I think back before the embargo, Cuba was head and shoulders above from what I have heard, but now I think that sums it up.
Now it's all just personal preference on what you prefer. Smoke what you like and enjoy!

 

[icehog3]

I always liked California wines more than French and they are half the price. Looks like the same with cigars. Glad I like NC's at half the price.

Frankly, most of my go-to Cubans are less exspensive than good NCs.

More importantly, Thank You for your Service.

 

[Dread]

Now it's all just personal preference on what you prefer. Smoke what you like and enjoy!

You got it Brother!

 

[W.B.]

I always liked California wines more than French and they are half the price. Looks like the same with cigars. Glad I like NC's at half the price.

Frankly, most of my go-to Cubans are less exspensive than good NCs.

More importantly, Thank You for your Service.

For me, the comparison depends mostly on where you buy your cigars and what you like. For example, if you walked into an authorized shop in London, Quebec or even a place where taxes are less like a LCDH in a tropical place for CC's those prices would be higher than if you purchased your NC's off c-bid and such place's where MSRP is seldom paid. But conversely, if you buy CC's off the lower priced grey market versus buying NC's from a brick and mortar in California NC's would be more. Also, it depends if the sizes are compared apples to apples. Cuban churchill's I've enjoyed are typically similarly priced to NC's I enjoy in my experience; all things being equal. Smaller sizes like petite corona's, unfortunately not so much; wish I could find more NC's I like for $4-5. But then again, it's still about one's preference's and what your willing to pay to satisfy those.

 

[ciggy]

Cuban tobacco is the best tobacco in the world. I have no problem saying it, but the aftertaste of NC's makes it feel like my mouth is an ashtray.

Hmmm I really can't say i agree. Although I have had some great CC's I still favor the NC's that are made in Nicaragua. I enjoy a full body cigar so this could be the reason but I also know it's good to mix things up which CC's do for me. It's really all in the taste though as I've had alot of Cubans that I really didn't care for.

 

[alloy]

I went to the local B&M to watch Ohio State beat Michigan. Two hours to smoke a Cohiba Siglo VI. Left a nice chocolate/caramel aftertaste. Bought an Opus X. Not bad. Smooth with coffee taste. But the aftertaste was just burnt tobacco. Some NC's are pretty good. Padron, Opus x, Epernay Illusione. But not one can taste as good as the Cohiba/Bolivar/Monte Cristo's that I have had. The NC's all have the same flavor throughout the smoke

 

[CigarGavin]

With the understanding that price isn't an issue I believe that both cuban tobacco and non-cuban tobacco are similar/ equal in terms of quality and taste. A cuban cigar is rolled and box stamped with the understanding that age will bring a balanced and great smoke (not that cubans are not good without age, they are) but non-cuban tobacco is held by the manufacturer (pardon, Fuente/opus, illusione, tatuaje) and then rolled and released so that a great cigar is what you get time and time again. To me a well made/aged tatuaje is my favorite (no burnt ashtray aftertaste) but at the same time I also enjoy an aged partagas D no. 4 or other cubans in the same right. I know that everyone says that cuban tobacco is better in quality and I will get flack for it, but IMO the care that goes into the cigar is what is important. I find that people that prefer cuban tobacco "poo-poo" the cheaper cubans (JLP, QyH, etc) and stick with the more expensive brands, to me if you stick with the top tier of both types of tobacco (CC and NC) the quality,care, and age in some cases put into the tobacco is what truly makes a great cigar. I love both types of cigars and a loss of either would be equally detrimental to the cigar community IMHO.

 

[Reelman]

I welcome the diversity, especially now in this era of great cigars competing in the market. If I feel like it I can smoke a Cuban, Nicaraguan, or Dominican cigar. They are all very different and often very good. Just my 2 cents.

Here is a point to consider: The reality is that most Americans have not been able to smoke a Cuban, or when they think they have, it was most likely fake. Remember that this forum is predominantly American in its construction. The American cigar market is the largest in the world. It is also the largest market for the NC producers, as well. Why? BECAUSE THERE IS NO COMPETITION!! Considering that there is an embargo that has kept 3 generations of the cigar-smoking public from trying Habanos product, its not surprising that there is such a large NC movement on the forum; its illegal to own and smoke them here, so most people haven't had them (or had real ones).

Europe and Asia have almost as many cigar smokers as the States does, and CC outsell NC in both regions by a 2 to 1 margin. Why? Evidently, those folks prefer CC, even though they have to pay almost double. And you think that our cigar taxes are high? Try Europe.

Those of us on this forum who choose to purchase ISOM stock (and you know who you are!) do so because we see a vast difference in the quality. That doesn't make NC bad, it just means that, having tried both extensively, we prefer CC. I think that its great that there are cigar smokers everywhere who have found their favorites, but remember that the US is a closed area; until there is choice here on a broad basis, its a tilted scale.

 

[Reelman]

With the understanding that price isn't an issue I believe that both cuban tobacco and non-cuban tobacco are similar/ equal in terms of quality and taste. A cuban cigar is rolled and box stamped with the understanding that age will bring a balanced and great smoke (not that cubans are not good without age, they are) but non-cuban tobacco is held by the manufacturer (pardon, Fuente/opus, illusione, tatuaje) and then rolled and released so that a great cigar is what you get time and time again. To me a well made/aged tatuaje is my favorite (no burnt ashtray aftertaste) but at the same time I also enjoy an aged partagas D no. 4 or other cubans in the same right. I know that everyone says that cuban tobacco is better in quality and I will get flack for it, but IMO the care that goes into the cigar is what is important. I find that people that prefer cuban tobacco "poo-poo" the cheaper cubans (JLP, QyH, etc) and stick with the more expensive brands, to me if you stick with the top tier of both types of tobacco (CC and NC) the quality,care, and age in some cases put into the tobacco is what truly makes a great cigar. I love both types of cigars and a loss of either would be equally detrimental to the cigar community IMHO.

Gavin-

I agree with a lot of what you express, but there are any number of popular smokes up and down the range beyond Cohiba that get smoked on a regular basis. With Habanos's penchant for dumping marcas, if they were not selling well they would be MIA. I'm not that big of a fan of Cohiba myself. There are certainly different tastes that are achieved by aging a cc, but most will smoke very well ROTT. Taste is a fickle bitch; you named a cigar as one of your favs that tastes like yard waste to me, and not just because I prefer Cubans. I just don't have a palate for the NC type of taste. To me, they all just taste harsh, burned Starbucks grounds and strong at the expense of nuance.

Just as we have all chosen different women, I'm glad that we all have our smoke favs and that the community is vibrant.

 

[ckay]

I don't agree with you. I purchase ISOM and I don't do it because I see a difference in quality. Well let me rephrase that. The difference in quality is that NCs are constructed better and smoke better. I love Monte 2s but I hate the fact that 5 of every box of 25 are plugged. Let me say, however, I prefer cc a lot of times over an NC...until I light up a Cuban that smokes like a wooden dowel that is.

 

[CigarGavin]

With the understanding that price isn't an issue I believe that both cuban tobacco and non-cuban tobacco are similar/ equal in terms of quality and taste. A cuban cigar is rolled and box stamped with the understanding that age will bring a balanced and great smoke (not that cubans are not good without age, they are) but non-cuban tobacco is held by the manufacturer (pardon, Fuente/opus, illusione, tatuaje) and then rolled and released so that a great cigar is what you get time and time again. To me a well made/aged tatuaje is my favorite (no burnt ashtray aftertaste) but at the same time I also enjoy an aged partagas D no. 4 or other cubans in the same right. I know that everyone says that cuban tobacco is better in quality and I will get flack for it, but IMO the care that goes into the cigar is what is important. I find that people that prefer cuban tobacco "poo-poo" the cheaper cubans (JLP, QyH, etc) and stick with the more expensive brands, to me if you stick with the top tier of both types of tobacco (CC and NC) the quality,care, and age in some cases put into the tobacco is what truly makes a great cigar. I love both types of cigars and a loss of either would be equally detrimental to the cigar community IMHO.

Gavin-

I agree with a lot of what you express, but there are any number of popular smokes up and down the range beyond Cohiba that get smoked on a regular basis. With Habanos's penchant for dumping marcas, if they were not selling well they would be MIA. I'm not that big of a fan of Cohiba myself. There are certainly different tastes that are achieved by aging a cc, but most will smoke very well ROTT. Taste is a fickle bitch; you named a cigar as one of your favs that tastes like yard waste to me, and not just because I prefer Cubans. I just don't have a palate for the NC type of taste. To me, they all just taste harsh, burned Starbucks grounds and strong at the expense of nuance.

Just as we have all chosen different women, I'm glad that we all have our smoke favs and that the community is vibrant.

Totally understandable brother! I love that everyone has different tastes when it comes to cigars. I appreciate everyones opinion when it comes to taste, no matter price or type.

 

[Reelman]

I don't agree with you. I purchase ISOM and I don't do it because I see a difference in quality. Well let me rephrase that. The difference in quality is that NCs are constructed better and smoke better. I love Monte 2s but I hate the fact that 5 of every box of 25 are plugged. Let me say, however, I prefer cc a lot of times over an NC...until I light up a Cuban that smokes like a wooden dowel that is.

THAT I can agree with, brother! So many are plugged that it certainly raises the cost per stick! But when they aren't plugged........!

 

[Jfire]

Next year I'm doing my own honest independent review panel of all cigars smoked. Regardless of country. I hope more do the same so we can at least have a small "panel" to give us a better picture of the "plugged world" of cigars. Starting thread now.

 

[Dread]

Are most cubans still rolled in the entubado style? Entubado in my experiences with the style have been either perfect or damn near terrible when it comes to the draw, very little grey area.

 

[CuritibaRex]

Your food metaphor would be closer to the situational reality if you said that in addition to the best Maine lobster, the customer got the very best, award-winning locally produced Bavarian chocolates and the freshest locally produced award winning fruits and vegetables. That local control is key when compared to frozen, prepacked food of questionable age that has travelled by who knows what means in order to get to the restaurant.

But your thread has brought out the two most important factors for a fine cigar IMO; finish and consistency. A cigar with neither of these two attributes, regardless of source point or compositional responsibility, would fail to impress me to become a loyal smoker.

What distinguishes the CC from the non-CC experience is the puro factor. The constant control of fermentation from field to factory is of prime importance to production of a Consistency Award-winning cigar that gets better toward the end. When a maker subordinates that control to an exporting business associate, they have lost the battle for "Best of ...." in the world of cigars. The following is lifted from an article I posted here a few years ago http://www.botl.org/community/forums/showthread.php/22938-Brazil-Puros-Series-Introduction?highlight=brazilian+puro

"....
When a cigar manufacturer must import filler, binder or wrapper in order to complete their brand composition, there are five additional times when the leaves are at risk beyond the normal processes of making a cigar. 1. When the grower or his agent packages the raw material for shipment. 2. When the containers are loaded for shipment (normally by sea.) 3. During the voyage. 4. When the containers are unloaded. 5. When the unpacking occurs at the final destination. While I am sure these processes are all controlled and a majority of the time no damage is introduced to the imported products; during transport there certainly could be times of consequence, the manifestation of which is suffered by the end smoker of a non-puro cigar. When one considers introduction of a single asexual spore can begin the process of organic contamination or the deleterious effect of salt upon tobacco, the shipment is at the mercy of its containment. It is also easy to imagine a scenario whereby the tobacco is nested nearby vessel containers of corrosive chemicals being shipped somewhere or any number of extraordinary circumstances during transport that might add to the degradation of sensitive tobacco. Whereas, puros never leave the dominion of the manufacturer, hence the odds increase for consistency of product. "

While one can argue back and forth with confidence the value and merits of specific cigars, the evidence of puro superiority - under the best variegated growing conditions - is unquestionable. Given the required conditions, I am almost certain that a preponderance of manufacturers would say they would prefer to control every aspect of their product, from seeding to rolling.

 

[Tobacco Giant]

Your food metaphor would be closer to the situational reality if you said that in addition to the best Maine lobster, the customer got the very best, award-winning locally produced Bavarian chocolates and the freshest locally produced award winning fruits and vegetables. That local control is key when compared to frozen, prepacked food of questionable age that has travelled by who knows what means in order to get to the restaurant.

But your thread has brought out the two most important factors for a fine cigar IMO; finish and consistency. A cigar with neither of these two attributes, regardless of source point or compositional responsibility, would fail to impress me to become a loyal smoker.

What distinguishes the CC from the non-CC experience is the puro factor. The constant control of fermentation from field to factory is of prime importance to production of a Consistency Award-winning cigar that gets better toward the end. When a maker subordinates that control to an exporting business associate, they have lost the battle for "Best of ...." in the world of cigars. The following is lifted from an article I posted here a few years ago http://www.botl.org/community/forums/showthread.php/22938-Brazil-Puros-Series-Introduction?highlight=brazilian+puro

"....
When a cigar manufacturer must import filler, binder or wrapper in order to complete their brand composition, there are five additional times when the leaves are at risk beyond the normal processes of making a cigar. 1. When the grower or his agent packages the raw material for shipment. 2. When the containers are loaded for shipment (normally by sea.) 3. During the voyage. 4. When the containers are unloaded. 5. When the unpacking occurs at the final destination. While I am sure these processes are all controlled and a majority of the time no damage is introduced to the imported products; during transport there certainly could be times of consequence, the manifestation of which is suffered by the end smoker of a non-puro cigar. When one considers introduction of a single asexual spore can begin the process of organic contamination or the deleterious effect of salt upon tobacco, the shipment is at the mercy of its containment. It is also easy to imagine a scenario whereby the tobacco is nested nearby vessel containers of corrosive chemicals being shipped somewhere or any number of extraordinary circumstances during transport that might add to the degradation of sensitive tobacco. Whereas, puros never leave the dominion of the manufacturer, hence the odds increase for consistency of product. "

While one can argue back and forth with confidence the value and merits of specific cigars, the evidence of puro superiority - under the best variegated growing conditions - is unquestionable. Given the required conditions, I am almost certain that a preponderance of manufacturers would say they would prefer to control every aspect of their product, from seeding to rolling.

Doesn't your whole "consistency" argument go right out the window when you consider how inconsistent Cuban rolling is? Or the fact that CCs are shipped just as other cigars are shipped, albeit after they are rolled which would put them at just as much risk of "contamination" as non puros?

I don't know, just not buying the entire thing, I guess.

 

[vivalanation734]

I buy about 50/50 and haven't had any consistency problems as of late. Early 00s were terrible for CCs but they are just fine now.

 

[Reelman]

What I am hearing from Curitiba is that the loss of control is the variable that offers the most potential downside, and I agree in theory. Yes, the CC have to go from picking to curing to manufacturing, but the controls are much tighter in that the manufacturer has a vertical supply chain and the distances and potential hazards are minimal, certainly compared to the NC model of aggregation. Once the finished product leaves the ISOM, the boxes are well protected from potential degradation through vacuum sealing and such.

I do wonder however why Cohiba, of all the markas, is the one most likely to produce a wooden stick. The entubada method of rolling should prevent something like that happening.