Dirty Rats, FFPs, UF-13

[Goalee1]

I'm in the same boat as Craig and for the most part, for anything that's limited, we have an unwritten understanding of customers first. I may get one or two but no more. There is nothing written in stone but being a fairly small team( I'm solo 4 days, with a total of 8 people for 3 stores) we all know it's about creating and keeping relationships.

That being said, I get to smoke at work, pretty much whatever I want. With all the great smokes out now, missing a LE every now and then is ok. I get a nice discount on any regular smoke as well so its a win situation in my nook. We're in the business to sell cigars so to reward regular customers per say is more important.

If there is something über LE that I'm really after, I call a couple of locals like everyone else and roll the dice.

As for the lady throwing the employee under the bus like she did, just a bad decision on her part. She probably did so to make herself look good, but that just makes her shop look bad. G1

 

[Stillinger]

When should an employee get a shot at an exclusive or LE? If I'm the owner, I would want the majority of my products going to the customers. It would depend on what and how much of it there is. If I get four or five boxes, then a box to the employee isn't a big deal. If its one box, first time release, I wouldn't want it all going to an employee. Maybe a few in the box to the staff, then the rest to the consumers. If its box number three or four in a year or two, I could see the employee getting a box. I recognize the employees work hard and make the store, but if it happened too often where customers might feel upset that the store isn't getting htf smokes, that damages the business more than an employee missing out on a full box.

 

[Craig Mac]

Let's also keep in mind that a large percentage of the customers walking in most B&M's have no idea what a Ferrel Dirty UF-13 is in the first place. With 5 stores and an e-commerce site, there is an extremely high likelihood that most all of our stores won't see the cigars anyway when 1 box comes in here or there. These small batch limited edition cigars don't really impact most cigar shops sales at all and some shops don't even bother with them due to the headache of dealing that handful of customers that seek out the HTF stuff. You never have enough of some of these releases to satisfy everyone.

 

[MoJo]

Craig is right that no matter what, someone will be upset. Either at DE for not being able to make enough for everyone or to the store who didn't sell it to them. Personally I'm ok with employees being given the opportunity to smoke one or two, but not purchase anymore. And I mean smoke them, not save them. This way they can be more informed when recommending or not recommending them to customers. IMO using a job at a cigar shop to buy HTFs is like using a blog for handouts, but maybe I'm just bitter from the chase as well as from missing out on smokes before due to stores selling them all to one or two "preferred" people.

That being said, I was lucky with my hunt for UF13s (and have been able to grab a box of other Unicos before, sometimes you just need to be patient), but like others before me, after each chase I care a little less about trying to get HTFs and put a little less effort into each time.

 

[milhouse]

Then she told me that an employee purchased them. And that she wasn't too happy about that. At first it irritated me a little. But then I thought if I worked there I would have done the same thing.

Why wouldn't you? This coming from the guy who drove a combined 1.5 hrs to wipe out a stash of a htf item in a B&M that probably isn't your local.

:dunno:

 

[mdwest]

I see things a little differently than some of you I guess.. Ill admit on the front end that I might be completely wrong in my assessment.. I do not work in the cigar retail business.. and never have...

when I was in college I did work at a liquor store that specialized in fine/expensive wines and liquors... we were next door to an upscale private hospital and catered to the doctors and the rest of the hospital staff that worked there...

When we got in exclusive bottles, or something really nice/high end... the first thing the owner did was crack one and serve everyone that worked in the store a glass...

Her intention was to educate us on the product... so that we could sell it better... she knew that most of the docs that came into the shop had fat wallets, but very little knowledge or understanding of products in the store.. they just wanted something "good".. and they were willing to pay for it... they came into our store because they knew the staff could talk to them about the products, had first hand experience with them, etc.. and they typically walked out with cases of whatever product we were selling in their arms...

I dont know if a strategy like this would work in a cigar shop... you might end up having the staff smoke the entire contents of the only box of UF-13's you got into stock.. and have nothing left for your customers...

But I can see the value in letting one or two key members of your staff have one.. or letting everyone on the staff buy one or two the first couple of times they hit the shelves...

How better to put Craig (or anyone else working in a B&M) in a position to sell product, than to have him be able to talk to customers about it from personal experience?

I would have never tried one of the Foundry sticks last year had it not been for the clerk working the counter.. He loved them.. he knew what my tastes were... and talked to me about the "graham cracker" flavors, etc... I ended up buying a couple of them that day... and have gone back and bought probably another 20 over the past year from the same B&M...

granted foundry isnt an LE... but you get the picture..

 

[milhouse]

But I can see the value in letting one or two key members of your staff have one.. or letting everyone on the staff buy one or two the first couple of times they hit the shelves...

How better to put Craig (or anyone else working in a B&M) in a position to sell product, than to have him be able to talk to customers about it from personal experience?

Selling high end product is not the same as selling hard to find stuff.

Let's take Pappy Van Winkle for example, the demand is so great, that anyone looking for it does not need the .02 of a college kid working at the liquor store.

Same holds true with all this Liga Privada Unico stuff, it will sell out regardless, no need to sell product to staff members when customers go without. Business 101.

 

[mdwest]

considering only the laws of supply and demand is a 101 level business approach...

take this up the MBA level... think about things like employee relations.. customer relations.. market penetration.. market growth... strategic planning..

not to mention.. sometimes making something that is hard to find, even more difficult to obtain and more exclusive... is a valid strategy...

a customer going without a UF13.. might be a worthwhile trade off if I can keep employee retention high, overall customer satisfaction (through educated and knowledgeable employees) high, gain deeper market penetration through higher customer satisfaction (more people come back to see me more often because my staff is seasoned, experienced, knoweldgeable.. etc.. and Im not just hiring a new college kid to replace the old one that just left every 3 months...).. etc..etc...etc...

Again, I dont work in the cigar industry... I dont KNOW that this is a valid train of thought...

But it is the very core of many successful businesses.. both in product and service areas..

For example... the center of Marriott's entire business model is about keeping employees happy and educated.. their belief is if employees are happy, then customers will be happy.. and if customers are happy.. they will continue to return.. and will overlook minor mistakes and inconveniences (which will be less frequent than their competitors.. because they have a highly motivated and loyal staff)...

I would also maintain that this does apply to HTF just as well as high end products..

There are plenty of people that will seek out pappy van winkle and buy out your shelves whenever you get some in stock.. whether you actually try and sell it or not.. that is absolutely true...

That said.. those same people are going to buy it wherever they can find it.. seek it out any time it is available.. and are not necessarily your loyal customers.. they are simply on the hunt...

Take an educated employee.. that knows PVW.. who can sell it to a customer.. who then will appreciate the time you spent with him and the knowledge you imparted.. and you have developed a loyal, long term, customer.. and a sustainable source of income... (greater market penetration)..

You loose a couple of bucks on the 1 bottle of PVW that you gave your staff... and you might piss off the LE hunter that wanted it...

but you potentially gain dozens of long term customers that will come into your shop to buy Johnny Walker Blue 3x times a year.. because you took the time out to actually speak to them.. as opposed to simply ringing the register...

 

[CigarGavin]

Both of you guys have valid points;

Someone that is going to a shop looking for UF-13's (or Ligas at all) isn't looking for the input of whoever is working there. They just want what they came for; if that is because they are knowledgeable; then great. If that is because they read a bunch of reviews online; thats fine too, still have there mind made up.

Even having someone leave without a UF-13 (or Liga) is just as important then having someone leave with a Liga. I know that sounds weird, but a Liga fan knows first-hand how hard it is to find Liga products at B&M's because of the popularity of the product. Even if 6 times out of 10 you don't have it; that fact that you just might next time will keep them coming back. Plus the 6 times you have it are like christmas and will keep a customer loyal.

At the same time, only getting in 2 boxes of whatever Liga product, and then using one for you staff isnt a bad idea. Most times that amount of Liga that a shop gets in isn't what keeps the door open. If the shop isnt over-MSRPing product then the money made on the Ligas is going to be the same money made on the Mi Amor Reserva line (similar MSRP with the same mark-up) Plus the action of letting your employees try the HTF Liga id definitely a retention tool.

This is the same situation that Opus X have been in for years; there are B&M's that DONT mark them up (No 4. is 9.75$). They understand that its a 2-3 yearly release that gets people excited, but doesn't pay the bills. Employees and customers alike get a share and then they are gone for a few months. Its the correct way to do it and it builds a great moral with everyone associated with the shop.

 

[jpasser4]

considering only the laws of supply and demand is a 101 level business approach...

take this up the MBA level... think about things like employee relations.. customer relations.. market penetration.. market growth... strategic planning..

not to mention.. sometimes making something that is hard to find, even more difficult to obtain and more exclusive... is a valid strategy...

a customer going without a UF13.. might be a worthwhile trade off if I can keep employee retention high, overall customer satisfaction (through educated and knowledgeable employees) high, gain deeper market penetration through higher customer satisfaction (more people come back to see me more often because my staff is seasoned, experienced, knoweldgeable.. etc.. and Im not just hiring a new college kid to replace the old one that just left every 3 months...).. etc..etc...etc...

Again, I dont work in the cigar industry... I dont KNOW that this is a valid train of thought...

But it is the very core of many successful businesses.. both in product and service areas..

For example... the center of Marriott's entire business model is about keeping employees happy and educated.. their belief is if employees are happy, then customers will be happy.. and if customers are happy.. they will continue to return.. and will overlook minor mistakes and inconveniences (which will be less frequent than their competitors.. because they have a highly motivated and loyal staff)...

I would also maintain that this does apply to HTF just as well as high end products..

There are plenty of people that will seek out pappy van winkle and buy out your shelves whenever you get some in stock.. whether you actually try and sell it or not.. that is absolutely true...

That said.. those same people are going to buy it wherever they can find it.. seek it out any time it is available.. and are not necessarily your loyal customers.. they are simply on the hunt...

Take an educated employee.. that knows PVW.. who can sell it to a customer.. who then will appreciate the time you spent with him and the knowledge you imparted.. and you have developed a loyal, long term, customer.. and a sustainable source of income... (greater market penetration)..

You loose a couple of bucks on the 1 bottle of PVW that you gave your staff... and you might piss off the LE hunter that wanted it...

but you potentially gain dozens of long term customers that will come into your shop to buy Johnny Walker Blue 3x times a year.. because you took the time out to actually speak to them.. as opposed to simply ringing the register...

Well said!!!

BTW will you give me a note for my teacher so I don't have to go to my Econ class?

 

[milhouse]

considering only the laws of supply and demand is a 101 level business approach...

a customer going without a UF13.. might be a worthwhile trade off if I can keep employee retention high, overall customer satisfaction (through educated and knowledgeable employees) high, gain deeper market penetration through higher customer satisfaction (more people come back to see me more often because my staff is seasoned, experienced, knoweldgeable.. etc.. and Im not just hiring a new college kid to replace the old one that just left every 3 months...).. etc..etc...etc...

Again, I dont work in the cigar industry... I dont KNOW that this is a valid train of thought...

But it is the very core of many successful businesses.. both in product and service areas..

For example... the center of Marriott's entire business model is about keeping employees happy and educated.. their belief is if employees are happy, then customers will be happy.. and if customers are happy.. they will continue to return.. and will overlook minor mistakes and inconveniences (which will be less frequent than their competitors.. because they have a highly motivated and loyal staff)...

I would also maintain that this does apply to HTF just as well as high end products..

There are plenty of people that will seek out pappy van winkle and buy out your shelves whenever you get some in stock.. whether you actually try and sell it or not.. that is absolutely true...

That said.. those same people are going to buy it wherever they can find it.. seek it out any time it is available.. and are not necessarily your loyal customers.. they are simply on the hunt...

Take an educated employee.. that knows PVW.. who can sell it to a customer.. who then will appreciate the time you spent with him and the knowledge you imparted.. and you have developed a loyal, long term, customer.. and a sustainable source of income... (greater market penetration)..

You loose a couple of bucks on the 1 bottle of PVW that you gave your staff... and you might piss off the LE hunter that wanted it...

but you potentially gain dozens of long term customers that will come into your shop to buy Johnny Walker Blue 3x times a year.. because you took the time out to actually speak to them.. as opposed to simply ringing the register...

An interesting point a view, but it is foolish to waste scarce inventory on your workers. You can reward them with more pay, employee discounts on stuff that is not hard to attain, better vacation, praise, better benefits etc...

There is a reason why UnderCrown was created. The rollers were smoking the Liga Privada line, and those were sticks that should be going to customers. Steve Saka and the boys said no more. The rollers created the underCrown blend... or so the story goes.

The PVW argument is questionable too. In my experience with PVW, if a shop comes through with it for me, I will support them going forward, not because the clerk talked the product up, they found my phone number that was left with them months ago, called me, and came through with a bottle. Last holiday season, the store that got me a couple of bottles of PVW got my holiday order of booze as well.

 

[MattSRoss81]

Speaking strictly from a customer perspective, I think its a bit of BS to have a HTF cigar come through and have your employees take the entire supply before the customer base gets to enjoy. If there is a limit to how many I can get of an item, that limit should be the same for everyone - employee or not.

Moreover, beyond making for happy employees, how does this help the store? I know that I have several local B&Ms in my area, but I frequent one - Barrister Cigars in Union, NJ - because they have the HTF Ligas on occasion. Granted, there are other reasons I prefer this shop to others, but it doesn't hurt that I know I can get UF-13s and Dirty Rats and Pigs and L40s when they are available. By keeping your customers away from this, its one less draw that you as a shop owner have.

 

[mdwest]

We'll have to agree to disagree...

I would reiterate that many (if not most) of the most successful businesses in the US would find your position on "wasting" inventory on workers absolutely incorrect..

Pointing back to the Marriott example.. that company started with almost no investment capital.. and a single soda jerk stand in DC in the late 1920s.. today it is one of the largest and most profitable hotel chains in the world... Microsoft's philosophy from its inception was to create a work environment where employees were the focus of the business.. not the customers.. when Ballmer took the helm of the company in the 2000 they took a directional change and the company suffered.. they lost staff, creative genius, and a ton of money in the process.... by 2006 they hired a new VP of HR who took the company back to its roots of focusing on its people.. rather than its customers.. understanding that great employees will generate business... and turned the company back around in a span of less than 5 years..

these companies didnt become "great" by accident... or by chance... there are a lot of other hotel chains.. and a lot of other IT companies out there..

Just like there are extremely successful cigar companies.. and B&M's that set up shop, and turn around and close 12 months later..

taking a simplistic look at running a business and only considering supply vs demand.. is almost a sure fire way to fail in any industry..

again, letting employees buy your HTF's may or may not be a good idea.. I dont know.. I dont own a B&M...

what I do know is that Ill take 20 customers that frequent my shop and buy my run of the mill stuff weekly.. over 5x guys that only drop in occasionally to buy my HTF stuff.. but also shop other places in search of their special needs... any day...

if I can find a way to turn a couple of those HTF hunters into loyal customers that only shop at my store.. great... but if I have to make a decision as to whom to please.. Im going to take the long term, sustainable income of the larger customer base every time...

and there are A LOT of successful businesses out there to learn from.. that focus on their employees as the foundation for success... as opposed to only a select few that focus on a very limited, small group of niche market customers for their success...

 

[skullnbones]

I think you should hold employees and customers to the same standard. If you're going to sell HTF Liga by the box when you only get one or two boxes every couple of months then that's the owners decision. We don't seem to get as may out here in AZ as some of you guy on the East Coast, so I think it's a bit of a poor business practice to sell a whole box of HTF at a time anyways. Most of my local B&M's limit the HTF stuff to 2-4 sticks depending on what they get, which is fine with me. Would I like to by a whole box of FFP's or Anejo 77's, hell yes I would! But am I always the first one standing there when they're put on the shelf? No. So in that aspect I'm glad I get to buy a few before they're gone. Just my $.02.

 

[CigarGavin]

I dont think that anyone is saying that people that work at a B&M should get the opportunity to purchase everything; but they should be given a chance to buy something. Its because a majority of shops say flat out "no" to the their workers that if given the opportunity to purchase it would be an important tool in retaining employees.

Regardless of who buys them there is a reason there aren't enough to go around; its important marketing tool that creates demand (also to keep quality high blah blah haha)

Like Dave said "HTF Hunters" are a fickle bunch; loyal to none, and sporadic spenders. They don't pay the bills; the guys that buy an AF Cuban Corona everyday for 10 years is the guy that is going to get attention in a local B&M, just as it should be. Letting a worker buy a HTF along with the guys that call 50 times before a cigar is released without ever visiting the shop isn't a bad thing.

 

[mdwest]

Moreover, beyond making for happy employees, how does this help the store? I know that I have several local B&Ms in my area, but I frequent one - Barrister Cigars in Union, NJ - because they have the HTF Ligas on occasion. Granted, there are other reasons I prefer this shop to others, but it doesn't hurt that I know I can get UF-13s and Dirty Rats and Pigs and L40s when they are available. By keeping your customers away from this, its one less draw that you as a shop owner have.

I understand your argument...

but...

how much of their market do you think people like you and I represent?

what percentage of their overall sales.. or overall profitability.. do you think we account for?

The truth is the average B&M is going to make a ton more money off of the consumer group that doesnt have the first clue what a UF13 is (or care).. than it is off of guys like you and I... people like you and I are small in number...

Where the B&M benefits is exposing more people from that significantly larger consumer base to products other than the run of the mill NC RyJ, Cohiba, etc.. and growing the number of people like you and I that frequent their shop by helping to "convert" them..

How you do that, and what is the best approach is the question...

Youre already going to hit the shop looking for the next great thing to hit the market.. no matter what... If I can make my shop more appealing to you by providing excellent customer service.. or having products available to you that no one else has.. great..

But why settle for 10 guys like you? when I have the potential to grow 50 of my own internally? and potentially add in several of the original 10 in the process?

If Im a small business owner, Im not too worried about low hanging fruit... youre coming into my shop to buy my UF13's anyway...

Im worried about how I convince 500 people that buy 8-10 cigars a year to become serious about smoking.. have them bump up their game to a couple of hundred sticks a year.. and rely on me for all their needs moving forward... thats where the money is made..

No one is saying you should as a business owner let your employees smoke up all of your best sticks (which they probably bought with an employee discount)...

what is being said is that it is very likely that far more good can come from letting them get their hands on a few (at the expense of being able to sell that handful of sticks to the public).. than bad...

 

[Stillinger]

There is also something to be said about the HTF bringng business. I drive a good 40-50 minutes to a store I know and like that gets a bigger share of the limited stuff. I go back because I know there's a shot of something good being there. If its not, I load up on something else, but I make sure to frequent that place more often then a store that I know will rarely get an exclusive or a htf. If a local shop is carrying average sticks with no chance of something rare, I'm less likely to go. Sure, I still go by, but I stop less frequently knowing if there was anything limited, it's gone or they didn't get a share. With the store that carries more, I stop a lot more frequently and easily spend more there.

 

[mdwest]

Understood....

but again.. how much of that B&M's business do you think you, and guys like you represent? versus the people that live within a 10 minute radius of the location.. that are in there daily/weekly? versus the average joe on the street that only goes in a couple of times a year to pick up a handfull?

not saying your business isnt valuable to a shop owner...

simply saying we need to recognize that we represent a very small piece of the total pie that the B&M owner is trying to eat.. and that most of them are not going to cater to our needs over the needs of their much larger customer bases and income sources..

 

[skullnbones]

Not to get too off topic but, I have to ask. When you go into a B&M looking for a HTF, if they don't have it do you still buy something? I always do, I will usually find a least one new stick that I haven't tried. I just feel that it would be rude if I didn't. Is there a proper etiquette around this?

 

[ciggy]

Well this thread took off like a Mississippi Jackrabbit!
Here's my beef with Liga...I don't care if an employee buys his stock or not. What I do care about is if the limitations are so rare that no customers are getting the product at all. In other words lets say you go to that store and you ask the owner/worker if they are getting the product in and they say yes and tell you when. You decide to hold off from buying elsewhere. Meanwhile they get the product in, the qwner/worker buys all the product and you loss out because you waited and didn't buy from another source. If this were the case I would be really upset as the customer.