Dirty Rats, FFPs, UF-13

[mdwest]

I pretty much always buy something, every time I walk into a B&M.. regardless of my purpose for being there..

Not sure if there is really any etiquette or rule on something like this.. Im sure a lot of people that arent regular smokers walk in and walk out every day without picking anything up....

The only exception for me is when I go to the lounge/club that I belong to, that happens to be inside a B&M.. I will sometimes go there and not buy anything that particular day.. but my locker is stocked with sticks that I have purchased there previously that I smoke while I am there... so I dont really feel bad about that (they got my money.. they just got it the last time I was there instead of this time type thing..)...

 

[MattSRoss81]

I acknowledge your point, mdwest. I KNOW that I am not the typical B&M customer - I KNOW that there are very few B&Ms in the world that cater to my style of smoking. With that said, I still think its BS to not consider your customer base in situations like this.

 

[mdwest]

Well this thread took off like a Mississippi Jackrabbit!
Here's my beef with Liga...I don't care if an employee buys his stock or not. What I do care about is if the limitations are so rare that no customers are getting the product at all. In other words lets say you go to that store and you ask the owner/worker if they are getting the product in and they say yes and tell you when. You decide to hold off from buying elsewhere. Meanwhile they get the product in, the qwner/worker buys all the product and you loss out because you waited and didn't buy from another source. If this were the case I would be really upset as the customer.

this I agree with.. that is poor customer service.. and would piss me off... Im counting on a product being made available to the public... because they told me it would be.. and then they dont come through on their commitment...

but...

if they get in 2 boxes.. and the 6 employees that work there each get one out of the first shipment they receive.. and maybe get another shot at it again sometime later in the year after another release or two.. I dont see that being a problem at all.. If I miss out.. its not because they smoked them all themselves.. its because I didnt get there in front of the other 12,432 HTF hunters stalking the interweb in search of them that snatched up the remaining 1 1/2 boxes..

 

[Craig Mac]

Ok, let's add some other dynamics in to the mix with our 1 box of HTF Ubber LE cigars. And for the sake of argument we are going to sell the entire box to one person and not break it up.

Who do you sell the box to?
1. A customer who has never shopped at your store but is the first to call and be put on a waiting list, but will likely never shop with you again
2. A customer who has never shopped at your store but is the first to call and be put on a waiting list, but may likely shop with you again
2. The regular customer who only buys the HTF Ubber LE cigars from every time they come out
3. The guy who buys occasionally from you but wants these cigars in particular
4. The guy who is in your shop every day and wants the box
5. The employee who has been there for years and has watched several of these boxes go by already

As you can see you are going to upset 4 people no matter who you pick, and my point being this is the delima that these cigars can create. We seem to see this here every time a HTF cigar comes out, the most vocal about who should and shouldn't get the cigars tend to be the ones who didn't get any themselves. But they are just cigars and there will be another release of the next latest and greatest ultra limited HTF LE coming soon. Just remember, just because it comes out doesn't mean you are entitled to it.

 

[mistaforty]

You can tell whose using their phones and whose at a comp lol

 

[Master Shake]

this I agree with.. that is poor customer service.. and would piss me off... Im counting on a product being made available to the public... because they told me it would be.. and then they dont come through on their commitment...

but...

if they get in 2 boxes.. and the 6 employees that work there each get one out of the first shipment they receive.. and maybe get another shot at it again sometime later in the year after another release or two.. I dont see that being a problem at all.. If I miss out.. its not because they smoked them all themselves.. its because I didnt get there in front of the other 12,432 HTF hunters stalking the interweb in search of them that snatched up the remaining 1 1/2 boxes..

If that's the case then I wouldn't mind either. If your talking a few a boxes come in and some employees get to grab some sticks, great keep them happy. My point is that at the end of the day your business exists because of your customers and they should have an opportunity to buy this stuff too. In this case one box was bought up by an employee before anyone had a chance. That, I think, is wrong. It'd be one thing if he was allowed to grab 1-3 sticks (depending on how many other employees want them.) That I don't have a problem with.

Me and 3 other buddies frequent a local B & M a minimum of once a week. Me and another guy from this group are into the HTF stuff. I might not be this guys best client by any means but our group tab in alcohol alone is never less than $100 bucks, before we buy cigars and cigar equipment. We often times smoke more than one cigar as well. We often do this multiple times in a week. So let's say on average my friends and I bring a bare minimum of $300 dollars to this business weekly. One of the reasons I frequent this B & M is because they have HTF Liga occasionally. I think its people like me and my friends that keep places like this in business. And I know 15/16ths of the patrons have no clue what a UF-13 or Velvet Rat is as evidenced by their exclusive smoking of all things Rocky Patel. As a loyal patron to said business I don't think I'm being ridiculous to say that I should have an equal crack to come in and have an opportunity to purchase any HTF sticks that said business receives. If you're going to limit my ability to purchase mass quantities that's fine I can't complain about that just give me a chance to buy it. If I miss because I'm late on the draw and other customers beat me to it then that's fine too it's my own fault for not having good timing, that's just the way things go. But don't tell me I can't buy something because an employee took a product before it even hit the shelves, it makes me feel like my business must not be important to you.

I get what you're saying about having happy employees keeping your customers happy but I don't think it's exactly the same. An example of Marriott was used earlier. It's not like they turn away a "gold card frequent guest" or whatever they call them looking to stay in the presidential suite because "an employee already rented that suite sorry, you can have something else though." To hell with that as a "gold card frequent guest" it's customers like me who keep you in business. Same thing with Microsoft. If they had "Windows Super Awesome Edition" and my business couldn't purchase it because its limited and the employees bought them all they'd have a serious problem on their hands.

I tried really hard to find the UF-13s and was turned away by several businesses who had them because they didn't do phone orders. I get it, you wanna cater to your customers, good for you. I'm not the guy who's keeping you in business and while that sucks because I'm trying to track them down I understand. That's clearly a place that cares. I also tried emailing Mark at Tower Cigars. He told me that he was holding them all back for his customers who regularly come in. Good for you Mark, even though I buy some stuff occasionally (it has been a while though) I understand that my purchases mean nothing. If I didn't buy some HTF stuff from him then somebody else certainly would. My contribution doesn't even move the needle. The common theme here is that these good stores were catering to their customer base with these sticks and not just letting anyone grab them and I would assume that means employees were limited in what they could grab 2.

 

[MoJo]

I'm just glad not very many things are produced, marketed, distributed, sold, and controlled like cigars are. I think the cigar industry would benefit from learning a couple things from the wine industry, IF applied correctly.

 

[Stillinger]

I know and understand that I'm not what keeps the store running. That said, when I drop three hundred on a box I could get online for 250, or spend fourty bucks when I don't really need anything when I visit, I'm not exactly spending nothing. The stores a good fifty minutes, at least an hour and a half in traffic and I've spent a good grand or so in the past three months. Not a whale, but, I've spent a good amount.

I think we are in similar points md. I just think it makes sense to strike a balance between employee and consumers getting your htf stuff. Ultimately, the b/m survives in part due to relationships, and keeping as many people happy and buying has to be the priority.

Overall, I think this topic is very interesting.

Skull I must say, I try to buy whenever I go in a shop. Especially if I'm greeted nicely and the shop workers ask me if they can help. I usually don't want help and peruse for a bit, but I always try to buy something. I've only not bought twice in places, and that's when I couldn't even get in the door for the manager and his buddies, and once when the stock was so bad.

 

[mdwest]

your points are spot on MS... and I agree with you... to let a single employee buy out the entire stock (or most of it) is a slap in the face to customers.. even if that customer base is a small percentage of your overall customer base.. and only represents a small amount of the total business you are doing.. it says quite a bit about how much you value them...

but thats not the grind that some of the guys participating in this thread have.. the argument is whether or not employees should be allowed to jump in on the buy at all, and let any customers take a back seat.. or do the customers always come first when it comes to making sales...

RE the Marriott example you made.. youre actually wrong.. Marriotts employee program allows them to get rooms in anything from a Fairfield Inn to a Ritz Carlton... at EXTREMELY discounted rates.. to include suites, etc.. once they commit to giving that room to an employee.. joe consumer who is offering to rent that room at full fare is just SOL.. the room is booked.. If he is a gold or a platnium member, they might try to shuffle around other customers to accomidate him.. but they are not going to move the employee... under any circumstances..

once you have been an employee of Marriotts for 25 years.. you stay anywhere in the world, at any hotel, anytime you want... for free.. no ifs, ands, or buts about it.. if joe consumer wants a room and they just gave you the last one.. sucks for joe consumer.. he goes down the street to the hilton...

this system works extremely well for Marriott.. they have one of the highest employee retention rates in their industry.. even though they generally pay below market wages.. they also have some of the highest employee satisfaction ratings in their industry.. which impacts the satisfaction of their customers and has given them some of the highest customer satisfaction ratings in the industry...

joe consumer is willing to overlook the occasional inconvienience or mistake that marriott may make (all companies make mistakes).. because as a general rule, they get treated extremely well when they visit a marriott.. which is largely because the people that work there like their jobs, like the company they work for, and want to provide good service...

again.. take care of your people.. they in turn will take care of your customers.. which means your customers will keep coming back.. which ultimately takes care of you...

 

[Stillinger]

Ok, let's add some other dynamics in to the mix with our 1 box of HTF Ubber LE cigars. And for the sake of argument we are going to sell the entire box to one person and not break it up.

Who do you sell the box to?
1. A customer who has never shopped at your store but is the first to call and be put on a waiting list, but will likely never shop with you again
2. A customer who has never shopped at your store but is the first to call and be put on a waiting list, but may likely shop with you again
2. The regular customer who only buys the HTF Ubber LE cigars from every time they come out
3. The guy who buys occasionally from you but wants these cigars in particular
4. The guy who is in your shop every day and wants the box
5. The employee who has been there for years and has watched several of these boxes go by already

As you can see you are going to upset 4 people no matter who you pick, and my point being this is the delima that these cigars can create. We seem to see this here every time a HTF cigar comes out, the most vocal about who should and shouldn't get the cigars tend to be the ones who didn't get any themselves. But they are just cigars and there will be another release of the next latest and greatest ultra limited HTF LE coming soon. Just remember, just because it comes out doesn't mean you are entitled to it.

If several boxes have gone, obviously #5. If its box 1, then #4 is the case. If the option 4 has been everyday in the shop he probably had a crack at them or should have.

Sure, you're making people mad, but I think the customers should be first if its new stuff. If you're parsing the box out, then it's less of a big deal. Let the employees get a cut, but not to where they're taking from regulars. Personally, I'm not for servicing the random callers, though how do you separate who is going to be a loyal customer because you got them the hookup, and just a one off?

 

[zama80]

Other things to consider. Was the owner pissed off because the employee that bought the box got a great employee discount and the owner missed out on some good profit? Granted the profit on one box isn't going to make or break the store, bit it may be indicative of a bigger problem. And, did the employee buy the only box that came in before checking with the owner? Was there a policy in place that covers employee purchases? I think the bigger issue is that the owner is talking to customers about internal problems in their store. A big problem to me if I am a customer. If this owner can't control their own employees, what else is going own? Who is really running the place? I agree that employees should get some good perks, especially in specialty shops. BUT, in Zama80's fictional cigar store, if there was a policy in place and an employee broke that policy on a HTF product, they would be an ex employee. In Zama80's store it is easier to get permission than it is to get forgiveness.

 

[mdwest]

I completely agree with you Zama.. we're working with limited information here.. and a lot of assumptions and conjecture..

There might very well be a policy in place that would have prevented the sale.. if thats the case, the question becomes "what now?".. how does the owner handle the problem? how does he make sure it doesnt happen again? how does he satisfy customers that are upset about the issue?

If there isnt a policy in place... maybe there needs to be one? which raises the question of what is fair? what is right? what is the best policy for my business model? how do I maximize the customer experience? is it by always giving them first dibbs? is it by keeping happy staff? etc...

Im all for employees being self motivated, thinking outside of the box, coming up with creative solutions and solving problems with little direction and oversight from management...

but there is a place for rules in the workplace.. and punitive action should be expected when someone willingly and/or knowingly violates them..

 

[Grrrrr609]

Ok, let's add some other dynamics in to the mix with our 1 box of HTF Ubber LE cigars. And for the sake of argument we are going to sell the entire box to one person and not break it up.

Who do you sell the box to?
1. A customer who has never shopped at your store but is the first to call and be put on a waiting list, but will likely never shop with you again
2. A customer who has never shopped at your store but is the first to call and be put on a waiting list, but may likely shop with you again
2. The regular customer who only buys the HTF Ubber LE cigars from every time they come out
3. The guy who buys occasionally from you but wants these cigars in particular
4. The guy who is in your shop every day and wants the box
5. The employee who has been there for years and has watched several of these boxes go by already

As you can see you are going to upset 4 people no matter who you pick, and my point being this is the delima that these cigars can create. We seem to see this here every time a HTF cigar comes out, the most vocal about who should and shouldn't get the cigars tend to be the ones who didn't get any themselves. But they are just cigars and there will be another release of the next latest and greatest ultra limited HTF LE coming soon. Just remember, just because it comes out doesn't mean you are entitled to it.

In this case you need to add another one.

6.The employee that buys every box of FFPs and Dirty Rats that comes into the store.

The only reason I got the FFPs last time was because I lucked out and he wasnt working. I was told that he was going to be pissed that I bought the rest. I got 5 FFPs.

 

[Grrrrr609]

your points are spot on MS... and I agree with you... to let a single employee buy out the entire stock (or most of it) is a slap in the face to customers.. even if that customer base is a small percentage of your overall customer base.. and only represents a small amount of the total business you are doing.. it says quite a bit about how much you value them...

but thats not the grind that some of the guys participating in this thread have.. the argument is whether or not employees should be allowed to jump in on the buy at all, and let any customers take a back seat.. or do the customers always come first when it comes to making sales...

RE the Marriott example you made.. youre actually wrong.. Marriotts employee program allows them to get rooms in anything from a Fairfield Inn to a Ritz Carlton... at EXTREMELY discounted rates.. to include suites, etc.. once they commit to giving that room to an employee.. joe consumer who is offering to rent that room at full fare is just SOL.. the room is booked.. If he is a gold or a platnium member, they might try to shuffle around other customers to accomidate him.. but they are not going to move the employee... under any circumstances..

once you have been an employee of Marriotts for 25 years.. you stay anywhere in the world, at any hotel, anytime you want... for free.. no ifs, ands, or buts about it.. if joe consumer wants a room and they just gave you the last one.. sucks for joe consumer.. he goes down the street to the hilton...

this system works extremely well for Marriott.. they have one of the highest employee retention rates in their industry.. even though they generally pay below market wages.. they also have some of the highest employee satisfaction ratings in their industry.. which impacts the satisfaction of their customers and has given them some of the highest customer satisfaction ratings in the industry...

joe consumer is willing to overlook the occasional inconvienience or mistake that marriott may make (all companies make mistakes).. because as a general rule, they get treated extremely well when they visit a marriott.. which is largely because the people that work there like their jobs, like the company they work for, and want to provide good service...

again.. take care of your people.. they in turn will take care of your customers.. which means your customers will keep coming back.. which ultimately takes care of you...

In this case, the employee buys the entire box (the shop only gets one box) each time a box comes in. Now im not sure if its the same employee that buys every box or they take turns, but it seems that each time a box comes in an employee buys them. Now I know the shop owner takes care of the employees, giving them high end cigars to try so they know what they are talking about when they talk to the customer. I dont think the store owner knows the employees are buying the HTFs. I was talking to a manager, not the owner. A manager that ive talked to several times about cigars. A manager who is starting to get a sense of what I like and is always very helpful in directing me to new cigars to try. Was she right in "spilling the beans" about an employee buying the FFPs and Dirty Rats? Maybe not but I am glad she did.

Now, no this is not my closest B&M, no I dont frequent it all the time. But I do frequent it enough that the manager recognizes me and helps me herself. Taking her time to show me new stuff and other things I may enjoy. I do not spend my entire cigar budget there. But I do go there enough.

 

[Grrrrr609]

I completely agree with you Zama.. we're working with limited information here.. and a lot of assumptions and conjecture..

There might very well be a policy in place that would have prevented the sale.. if thats the case, the question becomes "what now?".. how does the owner handle the problem? how does he make sure it doesnt happen again? how does he satisfy customers that are upset about the issue?

If there isnt a policy in place... maybe there needs to be one? which raises the question of what is fair? what is right? what is the best policy for my business model? how do I maximize the customer experience? is it by always giving them first dibbs? is it by keeping happy staff? etc...

Im all for employees being self motivated, thinking outside of the box, coming up with creative solutions and solving problems with little direction and oversight from management...

but there is a place for rules in the workplace.. and punitive action should be expected when someone willingly and/or knowingly violates them..

Didnt really think this deep into this topic. I was at first iritated then felt that I woulda done the same so was curious what everyone here thought. This cigar shop is a chain, and Im sure the owner is unaware. I know the owner takes care of employees by giving them the best cigars in the shop to try. Not the HTFs but the 30+ dollar cigars. I know that everytime Ive been in to try and get the FFPs or Dirty Rats Ive just missed out, only once getting a half box of FFPs (which I was told I was lucky I beat an employee to them). I have no heartburn if another customer beats me to them. I was mildly irritated that an employee beat me to them before they even made it to the shelf.

Thank you guys for your opinions.

 

[milhouse]

We'll have to agree to disagree...

I would reiterate that many (if not most) of the most successful businesses in the US would find your position on "wasting" inventory on workers absolutely incorrect..

Pointing back to the Marriott example.. that company started with almost no investment capital.. and a single soda jerk stand in DC in the late 1920s.. today it is one of the largest and most profitable hotel chains in the world... Microsoft's philosophy from its inception was to create a work environment where employees were the focus of the business.. not the customers.. when Ballmer took the helm of the company in the 2000 they took a directional change and the company suffered.. they lost staff, creative genius, and a ton of money in the process.... by 2006 they hired a new VP of HR who took the company back to its roots of focusing on its people.. rather than its customers.. understanding that great employees will generate business... and turned the company back around in a span of less than 5 years..

these companies didnt become "great" by accident... or by chance... there are a lot of other hotel chains.. and a lot of other IT companies out there..

Just like there are extremely successful cigar companies.. and B&M's that set up shop, and turn around and close 12 months later..

taking a simplistic look at running a business and only considering supply vs demand.. is almost a sure fire way to fail in any industry..

again, letting employees buy your HTF's may or may not be a good idea.. I dont know.. I dont own a B&M...

what I do know is that Ill take 20 customers that frequent my shop and buy my run of the mill stuff weekly.. over 5x guys that only drop in occasionally to buy my HTF stuff.. but also shop other places in search of their special needs... any day...

if I can find a way to turn a couple of those HTF hunters into loyal customers that only shop at my store.. great... but if I have to make a decision as to whom to please.. Im going to take the long term, sustainable income of the larger customer base every time...

and there are A LOT of successful businesses out there to learn from.. that focus on their employees as the foundation for success... as opposed to only a select few that focus on a very limited, small group of niche market customers for their success...

Interesting arguments here. I totally agree with you that the HTF hunters should not be valued as much as your regular customer.

I agree with you in regards to keeping your staff happy. It certainly translates into better numbers... With that said, I work in private industry, and feel I get compensated well for what I do. I would NEVER take less money in my paycheck for an increase in employee discounts or even free stuff. Cash is king to me.

The Marriott example given earlier seems foreign to me. Getting paid below market but having access to deep discounted hotel rate seems less desirable than earning more money and paying for whatever hotel I want to stay at. Take my wife and I for example, we personally shy away from Hiltons, Marriotts, Ritz etc... I normally do not like to vacation at the same place a business conference is located. We prefer a more intimate, personalized, luxury experience only a small boutique can offer. Not a problem, we spend our disposable income how we choose to. Now if I were a hotel employee who got less pay but free rooms, I would feel I was leaving money on the table by not staying at the Marriott.

I feel your points on Marriott and MSFT are still different. They do not produce an extremely limited or hard to find product, actually it's the opposite. I work in midtown NYC and there are Marriotts and or Courtyard Marriotts all over the place.... Windows 8 or MS office can be produced on demand, anyone with $ gets a license. They can sell an infinite amount of product.

You seem like the type of guy I would like to shoot the shit with over a cigar or two. Very interesting posts.