Is there some magic with how air travels in a humidor?

[ronmart]

I'm a newbie, but I've spent a good chunk of my life in New Orleans (without A/C) which is subtropical humidity on an epic level. I know what humidity and mold can do and I learned how to keep things I cared about from being destroyed by the humidity and heat. In addition as photographer, I have to be aware of how to deal with condensation to avoid moisture build up in cameras and lenses.

Fast forward to now and I'm absolutely perplexed at some of the things I read about what people say they do to humidify cigars.

Issue 1 - Logic Defying Tubos
In the world I lived in air and humidity does not get inside a sealed tube (specifically metal tubo designs) unless you subject them to extreme temperature changes (i.e., refrigerate or freeze and then bring them into the heat - or vice versa. Temperature changes can impact the humidity level of the moisture already in the tube, but if left closed long enough that humidity will eventually evaporate away. Humidity is good at getting into things, but it seems like magic that it would find its way into tubos with a cap screwed on.

Issue 2 - Cellophane Wrappers
While I can see how a typical cigar cellophane wrapper could allow some humidity in, it seems like it would be much slower and harder for it to get in there than with no wrapper at all.

This makes me think that one should be consistent with either leaving the wrappers on or off - but not both - unless there is something about a particular cigar (i.e., a cigar with a wrapper that holds moisture well might be better served better in cello in a humidor full of unwrapped maduros).

With these things in mind, if I kept my cigars in the wrappers then I'd need more humidity in the humidor to keep them moist enough. If I kept them out of the wrappers (as I do) then I'd need less humidity. My initial observations with my humidor are that my cigars do better at 64 - 66% humidity since I leave the wrappers off, but if I left them on I could see the need to be at the frequently recommended 68% - 70% (which is way to humid for my naked smokes).

Now granted, I can see some variables based on where you live, so this is based on me living in Seattle with my ambient humidity in the home at 30% and temp at 71 degrees (which the wife still thinks is too cold). This keeps my humidor temp typically around 66 - 69 degrees but its a desktop with a glass top (yeah, I know <g>).

Issue 3 - Rules don't apply to the manufacturer's
It shocks me how great cigars even from high end companies like Davidoff will come in sealed boxes (sometimes even with tubos inside) that are wrapped tight externally with cellophane - with no humidity packets on the inside. These cigars will stay that way for god knows how long and even worse B&M stores will store them this way in their humidors.

Am I missing something? Does the magic humidity fairy unwrap them at night and let the humidity in?

I don't think they do because it seems that more times than not these cigars are dry as hell and need some work to bring them back to life. Why don't they put humidity packs in there (which I realize some do - like Arturo Fuente)? Why don't retailers open them up when they get them so they can start getting proper humidity?

This magic just perplexes me.

Issue 4 - Storing cigars in closed boxes
While I do see that some box designs offer a clear path for air to travel into them, I also see others that are airtight vaults (Macanudo Vintage Maduro is a good example). I've seen some people say they put something to leave their boxes cracked open, but I also see others just tossing them in the humidor closed like some magic is going to happen. It's like putting an unseasoned humidor with no humidification inside of a regular humidor and expecting magic to occur to cause humidity to enter the interior one. If this theory were true then pretty much everyone in New Orleans would never need to put anything in their humidor during the summer - they could have an unseasoned humidor with dry cigars shipped from a climate with 20% humidity and in a few weeks their cigars would be perfect.

Again, in this case if the magic humidity fairies did work it would seem you'd need a crapload more humidity here than with cigars just in cello or unwrapped cigars so you could never mix and match - you'd either have to be all boxes sealed as tight as a nun's underwear OR you'd have to have all your cigars outside of the box.

What am I missing because I'm just calling BS on some of the things I'm seeing people say about how they are humidifying their cigars.

My thinking is as follows:

1. If you are going to leave cigars in boxes, then make sure air can get into them - and it's probably not a bad idea to remove the cellophane
2. Take the caps off tubos or remove the tubo entirely. The caps are only useful when travelling / shipping the cigar to keep it safe. The exception to this rule is for some Davidoff tubos which can be rotated to allow ventilation into the tube with the cap on.
3. If you leave the cellophane on then you'll need more humidity than if you take it off. Either go all off or all on and adjust your humidity as needed (with more needed for cello on).
4. I can see the value in keeping the cellophane on to help protect cigars in case you accidentally get them too moist and to protect flavors from transferring from the wrappers of one cigar to another.
5. Beware acquiring cigars that have been in wrapped packages or tubos for too long as they'll require a lot of reconditioning. This is perhaps why I'm seeing gift sets from the holidays on sale now because they've been sealed too long.

I'm new to cigars so I'm happy to hear thoughts about why I'm full of crap, but logically and experience outside of the cigar world just doesn't seem to align with what people say about how humidity works.

 

[Craig Mac]

You're definitely not alone in your thinking, but you are a little off base in your thought process.

1. When cigars are boxed and sealed up at the factory, the cigars are coming out of the aging room where they have been stored at proper levels for several weeks or longer in some cases. Many companies have boxes stored at humidity as well. Do you honestly think a manufacturer would not put some kind of $.50 humidity pack in a $200 box of cigars if it truly required one?

2. Tubes are not air tight, humidity WILL get inside the tube and it WILL stabilize to the environment it is in as far as temp AND humidity.

3. See #2 answer for this as well, switch "Tube" with "Cellophane".

4. Cellophane will not protect cigars in a high humidity environment, once the cigar acclimates to it's environment it will be the same humidity. It would likely take a year or more for "naked" cigars to marry flavors. And unless you are talking about infused cigars I seriously doubt you would notice a difference. Most people who have had cigars for years mixed with other cigars would tell you that their Tatuaje didn't taste like their Illusione or vice versa because they sat next to each other for several years.

5. That is just not true, unless it's out of a humidified environment for several weeks or even months at a time there will be no significant effect on a sealed box of cigars. Those "sets" are likely on sale because it's been 2 months since the holidays and the store wants to move them out and make room for new inventory.

 

[ronmart]

Thanks for the reply Craig!

I'm still not seeing how on the metal tubes, but I'll take your word for it.

One thing that dawned on me too is that cigars are probably pretty moist when they are first made and boxed, so there's probably some expectation that they will dry out before being enjoyed anyway. However, it seems like there should be some "best opened by" date on them. :hammersma

The fact that some do include a humidity pack and others don't is part of what puzzles me too.

I'm glad to hear that flavor transfer isn't a problem as I plan to keep my cigars out of the cellophane. I just like the way it looks and smells, and it just makes more sense to me when humidifying them.

 

[Heath]

I can see where you are coming from and what better place to ask/ponder than here.

Tubes- I have only seen and or read about peoples cigars getting moldy because it was left in the tube. I have almost never hear anyone say my cigar was dried out and cracked because I left it in the tube. So I am one that take them out of the tubes (Why chance it)

Cello- Cellophane is the most popular material for manufacturing cigar packaging Because its permeability to moisture makes cellophane the perfect product for this application as cigars must be allowed to "breathe" while in storage.
When I buy or acquire Cigars if they are in Cello I leave them in the Cello. But I do like the idea of cutting the top of the cello to allow more flow.

Boxes- You'd be surprised at how long a sealed box will hold its humidity for. That said if I were to buy a box I would surely open said box and either take the top off the box or take the cigars out of the box because I just would want to take that chance.

Acquiring Cigars- It is always a good idea to take any NEW to YOU cigar and place it in your Humi for at least a month just to ensure it is healthy when you do lite it up.

Thanks for posting your thoughts.

 

[ronmart]

I can see where you are coming from and what better place to ask/ponder than here.

Tubes- I have only seen and or read about peoples cigars getting moldy because it was left in the tube. I have almost never hear anyone say my cigar was dried out and cracked because I left it in the tube. So I am one that take them out of the tubes (Why chance it)

Cello- Cellophane is the most popular material for manufacturing cigar packaging Because its permeability to moisture makes cellophane the perfect product for this application as cigars must be allowed to "breathe" while in storage.
When I buy or acquire Cigars if they are in Cello I leave them in the Cello. But I do like the idea of cutting the top of the cello to allow more flow.

Boxes- You'd be surprised at how long a sealed box will hold its humidity for. That said if I were to buy a box I would surely open said box and either take the top off the box or take the cigars out of the box because I just would want to take that chance.

Acquiring Cigars- It is always a good idea to take any NEW to YOU cigar and place it in your Humi for at least a month just to ensure it is healthy when you do lite it up.

Thanks for posting your thoughts.

Cool - thanks!

 

[javajunkie]

there is nothing but solid info here, so no worries, BUT, as for the "humidity pack" question: that is really just idiot proofing on the part of manufacturers. if you have an end user (or god forbid a retailer) who doesn't know to keep a box humidified, it is a cheap insurance against bad PR.

also, i know this is anecdotal, but i have seen and smoked some nat sherman's and leon jiminez a local found after a decade or more, sealed in humidified backstock, and they were awfully damn good. apparently they had overbought during the 90's boom, and this was a long overdue clean up for them. for the price, it didn't suck at all. o)

 

[rdomfoto]

After reading a thread the other day on cello, I started cutting the ends of the cello off to open the packaging further and allowing the humidified air to reach the cigar more effectively. I still want to keep the cello on as a means of protecting the wrapper from damage. But now that the end of the cello is off, I feel better about the air keeping the stick humidified

 

[StogieNinja]

Here's the long and short of it: if the cigar was at appropriate rH when it was celloed/tubed/boxed, it stands to reason that:
a)if there's any breathing, it will acclimate to the ambient rH. So if you take that sealed thing and put it in a humidor, it will acclimate to the humidor.
b)If there's no breathing, it will remain at the appropriate rH as long as it is sealed.

The answer is actually A, but even if it were B, you'd still be fine strictly in terms of rH.

The real issue is that there needs to be some exchange in order to allow the cigar to get rid of the ammonia that is released as it continues to ferment. Fortunately, cello is not airtight (it has an open end, even if the plastic itself was airtight) so there's some exchange of air. Tubos are the same, though many will remove the cap or leave it just a bit loose to ensure exchange. The thick plastic used on a lot of cigar boxes is not permeable, but it's also not sealed, it's usually folded like gift wrap. The thinner stuff used elsewhere is permeable, IIRC (I could be wrong).

I personally remove as much plastic as I can, but it's not strictly speaking necessary. I think it slows down the acclimation, resting, and aging processes, but in some cases that's a good thing.

 

[ronmart]

Here's the long and short of it: if the cigar was at appropriate rH when it was celloed/tubed/boxed, it stands to reason that:
a)if there's any breathing, it will acclimate to the ambient rH. So if you take that sealed thing and put it in a humidor, it will acclimate to the humidor.
b)If there's no breathing, it will remain at the appropriate rH as long as it is sealed.

The answer is actually A, but even if it were B, you'd still be fine strictly in terms of rH.

The real issue is that there needs to be some exchange in order to allow the cigar to get rid of the ammonia that is released as it continues to ferment. Fortunately, cello is not airtight (it has an open end, even if the plastic itself was airtight) so there's some exchange of air. Tubos are the same, though many will remove the cap or leave it just a bit loose to ensure exchange. The thick plastic used on a lot of cigar boxes is not permeable, but it's also not sealed, it's usually folded like gift wrap. The thinner stuff used elsewhere is permeable, IIRC (I could be wrong).

Cool this thread is helping - I'm starting to get it. I didn't realize the cellophane was permeable so that explains a lot. I was thinking they acted like plastic and we used to put things in plastic bags or tupperware (much like the tuperdors <g>) to keep the humidity OUT when I lived in New Orleans.

I'm still skeptical about the tubos though. If I have a cap that requires three twists to remove then that piece of aluminum is going to be pretty darn air tight. I can see how a cigar can mold because that comes from within, so I only see tubos as a nice carrying case for a cigar - except in the case of the Davidoff design that allows air in with a cedar sheet as an added layer of protection.

 

[StogieNinja]

Well, take the tubo and submerge it in water. (Obviously take the cigar out ) That'll tell you if it's airtight!

 

[Jfire]

I'm smoking a 12 yr old LGC MDO 3 tonight that its box didn't get opened till this year. I'm not sure how long but it was also placed in a air restrictive freezer sealed bag. Take everything u read here with a grain of salt. Cigars need proper temp and humidity. That's it.
Edit: ill take it one step further and say I have boxes over four years old that are not even cracked yet. No seals broken, nothing. And I'm not worried one bit. Well maybe keeping my hands off them......

 

[3/5King]

Cellophane is a polymer of glucose. It's made from wood, cotton, hemp, etc. and it is made to be breathable. Also as stated above, it is unsealed at one end which allows even more air/moister to permeate the cellophane wrapper. The tubes, although more "air tight" than cellophane are also air/moisture permeable. By looking at them, without understanding them (or how air/moister might come to pass through their "sealed" enclosures) I can see how you would easily come to the assumptions that yourself along with a lot of other people have come to. Wood is also extremely air/moisture permeable. Especially the cedar boxes that almost all cigars come in. It is one of the many reasons it was chosen as the preferred wood for housing cigars (along with its anti microbial properties and wonderful aroma)

You have to think on a microscopic level and take air pressure into consideration. Air pressure always wants to equalize and temperature/ humidity level the same. If conditions inside are close to that of the outside (whether it be your house or a humidor) it happens at a more gradual pace. If you have a cigar company that stores their cigars at say 65/65 (just an example) and they ship (cigars in cellophane or tubes) to a cigar store that keeps them at 70/70 and then they get to your house and you keep them at 65/70 in your humidor, not much has changed in the cigars moisture content. Let's say they make it into your humidor with a slightly higher moisture content than the conditions inside your humidor. They will start to gradually dissipate that moisture until they have eventually settled at whatever conditions your humidifier has dictated. The larger force dictates what the outcome will be. If you have a humidor that you just stuffed full with cigars kept at 70/70 and you try to keep in a 65/65, the moisture in the cigars is going to do a lot of the dictating when it comes to humidity levels in that humidor until they slowly dissipate to the slightly less humidity level that you have set for your humidifier.

So to say that those boxes, cellophane wrapped cigars and tubed cigars will eventually equalize to the conditions you set for them.

 

[ronmart]

Well, take the tubo and submerge it in water. (Obviously take the cigar out ) That'll tell you if it's airtight!

I did that with the first tubo I could find - a Zino Grand Master tube. Held it under water for two minutes - two times. Each time it would start with a few bubbles then quickly stop. All told I got about 20 bubbles over both submerges - the net result was one drop of water about the size of a booger :dunno: It does prove your point that it's not completely airtight (fair enough) but it does validate my concern as well.

I think the consensus is to take them out of the tubes, but it is also reinforces my concern about shops that keep them in the tubes for a long time before selling them.

This leads me back to my original conclusion about these - buy a tubo because you like it as a decorative item, but don't plan to smoke the cigar right away - it'll need some reconditioning for a few weeks to months outside of the tube.

 

[ronmart]

Cellophane is a polymer of glucose. It's made from wood, cotton, hemp, etc. and it is made to be breathable. Also as stated above, it is unsealed at one end which allows even more air/moister to permeate the cellophane wrapper. The tubes, although more "air tight" than cellophane are also air/moisture permeable. By looking at them, without understanding them (or how air/moister might come to pass through their "sealed" enclosures) I can see how you would easily come to the assumptions that yourself along with a lot of other people have come to. Wood is also extremely air/moisture permeable. Especially the cedar boxes that almost all cigars come in. It is one of the many reasons it was chosen as the preferred wood for housing cigars (along with its anti microbial properties and wonderful aroma)

You have to think on a microscopic level and take air pressure into consideration. Air pressure always wants to equalize and temperature/ humidity level the same. If conditions inside are close to that of the outside (whether it be your house or a humidor) it happens at a more gradual pace. If you have a cigar company that stores their cigars at say 65/65 (just an example) and they ship (cigars in cellophane or tubes) to a cigar store that keeps them at 70/70 and then they get to your house and you keep them at 65/70 in your humidor, not much has changed in the cigars moisture content. Let's say they make it into your humidor with a slightly higher moisture content than the conditions inside your humidor. They will start to gradually dissipate that moisture until they have eventually settled at whatever conditions your humidifier has dictated. The larger force dictates what the outcome will be. If you have a humidor that you just stuffed full with cigars kept at 70/70 and you try to keep in a 65/65, the moisture in the cigars is going to do a lot of the dictating when it comes to humidity levels in that humidor until they slowly dissipate to the slightly less humidity level that you have set for your humidifier.

So to say that those boxes, cellophane wrapped cigars and tubed cigars will eventually equalize to the conditions you set for them.

That's enough detail that I won't argue and just trust on faith since I'm sure craploads of people do this and they still enjoy their cigars. eace:

 

[Lipher]

I felt the same way at first but the science posted here is true. The fact that you typically rest cigars balances everything out. I have always remove the cigar from the tubing because of the potential for mold but this can happen with boxes too (I think someone posted a four kicks box that Jon himself handled). Rh and temp are important but so is time spent in those conditions

 

[ronmart]

Thanks - everyone has been very helpful here in helping me to understand and not taking my question the wrong way. That's very refreshing these days as stating your concerns or lack of understanding of something on other forums can start a holy war!

Great people here - I love it! :cbig:

 

[3/5King]

No problem Ronmart. It can be nerve wrecking thinking your cigars might mold, dry up, etc. I'd be digging for info too if I thought that.