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DE Undercrown Dogma?

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Read this yesterday and seemed to have the same thoughts as many of you. For the price point, I'm not going out of my way to track these down (although I do enjoy the Viva blend and find it preferable to the other vitolas), but if I come across one, I will gladly smoke it.

I find myself more and more annoyed with DE each time they release another stick instead of working to make the products they already have in their line up more accessible.
Those aren't mutually exclusive things, as the blends are totally different. If you have plenty of tobacco to make Undercrowns, and not enough tobacco to make more Unicos, you make more Undercrowns. But that doesn't mean you're making less Unicos.
Exactly. Seems like DE is going full-circle from the manufacturer with all the fanboys to the guys its "cool" to not like now, but I know that if they had the ability to produce more L40 and Dirty Rat and whatever, they would.
 
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I read this yesterday. Eh DE is just putting out $10+ sticks left and right. I love DE but their price tags kill me. I dont think their prices should be that high but thats just me. And the other stuff they put out like L40 and FFP I cant even attempt to get my hands on so I dont even try anymore.
 
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I started off in this hobby a DE fanboy. I wanted to collect all the LEs and unicos. I would pay any price to have a completed set. And then it clicked. It's a cigar... And I realized I'd rather have a bunch of tats I enjoy and can re supply than a LE DE that I paid more than it's worth and can't get again even if I like it.


I find myself more and more annoyed with DE each time they release another stick instead of working to make the products they already have in their line up more accessible.

The UC is still one of my favorite sticks. But that's because it's easily accessible and is at a OKAY price point for me and my budget. But the UC lancero and the UC box press don't interest me. I wish JD the best and think he's a great guy with a great dream. But id rather spend my money supporting guys like Jon huber and Pete Johnson.

EDIT: Changed DE to UC
Amen to you brother, I couldn't agree with you more.

Sick of hearing all the hype about these LE sticks.
 
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I started off in this hobby a DE fanboy. I wanted to collect all the LEs and unicos. I would pay any price to have a completed set. And then it clicked. It's a cigar... And I realized I'd rather have a bunch of tats I enjoy and can re supply than a LE DE that I paid more than it's worth and can't get again even if I like it.


I find myself more and more annoyed with DE each time they release another stick instead of working to make the products they already have in their line up more accessible.

The UC is still one of my favorite sticks. But that's because it's easily accessible and is at a OKAY price point for me and my budget. But the DE lancero and the DE box press don't interest me. I wish JD the best and think he's a great guy with a great dream. But id rather spend my money supporting guys like Jon huber and Pete Johnson.
And now it's time to quote you. This is exactly how I started and feel as well more and more lately. The hype is just so much it burns you out quickly.
You guys are on the mark. It's a cigar. It's not a car. It's one and done. I don't get caught up in the hype. I may try one and I may not. Either way I'm good cause there are lots of great readily available sticks to smoke out there.

I really like Liga Privadas, but only if I get a really good deal on them. DE's approach to the market isn't exactly how I would envision doing it if I were in their shoes. I personally prefer the Huber approach.
 
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I started off in this hobby a DE fanboy. I wanted to collect all the LEs and unicos. I would pay any price to have a completed set. And then it clicked. It's a cigar... And I realized I'd rather have a bunch of tats I enjoy and can re supply than a LE DE that I paid more than it's worth and can't get again even if I like it.


I find myself more and more annoyed with DE each time they release another stick instead of working to make the products they already have in their line up more accessible.

The UC is still one of my favorite sticks. But that's because it's easily accessible and is at a OKAY price point for me and my budget. But the DE lancero and the DE box press don't interest me. I wish JD the best and think he's a great guy with a great dream. But id rather spend my money supporting guys like Jon huber and Pete Johnson.
And now it's time to quote you. This is exactly how I started and feel as well more and more lately. The hype is just so much it burns you out quickly.
You guys are on the mark. It's a cigar. It's not a car. It's one and done. I don't get caught up in the hype. I may try one and I may not. Either way I'm good cause there are lots of great readily available sticks to smoke out there.

I really like Liga Privadas, but only if I get a really good deal on them. DE's approach to the market isn't exactly how I would envision doing it if I were in their shoes. I personally prefer the Huber approach.
How is the Huber approach different than DE? Just curious.
 
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How is the Huber approach different than DE? Just curious.
Well for me the difference is that one of his more hyped releases, the Drumstick, was only $10 a stick and was one of the few LE sticks that I enjoyed in the past year. It was also one of the seemingly ever shrinking amount of sticks that I thought was worth the money in that price department. I have a trouble finding $10+ cigars that are worth the price, hunt, or hype so it was refreshing for me. It was also produced in a quantity that made it easy for us who were interested in them to find them. This is in stark contrast to much of the DE pricing which is high to very high, hard to find, and too often misses the mark in terms of hype produced for the product compared to the value to enjoyment ratio.
 
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Just as others have already said I enjoy UC but $10 a stick is more than I think there worth. I would rather burn a T52 for $10.50!
 
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Master Shake makes a valid point. The Drumstick is a great smoke and can actually still be found today. Even with his coming releases, I think the CH LEs will be more accessible than DE LEs. That being said, I'm still stoked for the Dogma
 
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I'm liking the Room 101 Master Collection releases more than anything lately. I also like the fact I don't have to rely on one source to get them. I'm a bit turned off the Dogma for this fact. I understand the purpose, but I won't fight to get them or pay top dollar since they're exclusive.
 

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It was also produced in a quantity that made it easy for us who were interested in them to find them.
The demand for the drumstick is a LOT lower than for the Unicos, as Crowned Heads isn't nearly as popular as Drew Estates, that's the only reason why they are easier to find. The drumstick was produced in smaller quantities (1500 boxes of 10) than even the No 9 or T52 Flying Pigs (2000 boxes of 10, IIRC).

I don't think you can say that one company is doing it "right" and the other is doing it "wrong" based on what you've stated. What you've argued is that Jon is doing it right because the stick he made in a smaller quantity is more available than JD's stuff. Crowned Heads stuff is more available simply because the demand isn't nearly as great, that's all. Basically you're arguing that DE should make their brand less popular, or not hype/advertise their product in order to make it easier for you to find.

This is in stark contrast to much of the DE pricing which is high to very high, hard to find, and too often misses the mark in terms of hype produced for the product compared to the value to enjoyment ratio.
The MSRP on most Ligas is $10, the Unicos are $12-14, which isn't all that much higher, but I'll give you that they're higher. However, whether the value to enjoyment ratio is off is subjective, and clearly a large number of folks disagree. Secondly, I find the LP9 -a regular production stick that's as easy to find and at the same price- much better than the Headley Grange, as good as the HG is. Hard-to-find is relative, and the comparison you made to Crowned Heads is unfair - the demand isn't nearly the same for the two brands.


Master Shake makes a valid point. The Drumstick is a great smoke and can actually still be found today. Even with his coming releases, I think the CH LEs will be more accessible than DE LEs. That being said, I'm still stoked for the Dogma
The Drumstick was just released, and Crowned Heads isn't nearly as in demand as DE stuff is, so of course it's more accessible. As I said before, nearly all the HTF DE stuff is produced in larger quantity than the Drumstick (all the Flying Pigs, the Liga line and the Unico lineup). That doesn't mean Jon's doing it right and JD is doing it wrong.

In fact, I'll be very interested to see how Jon is doing when Crowned Heads has been around for a few years. I'm guessing he'll have a rabid fan base like DE does (because he seems like a GREAT guy, and he's in touch with what his fans want, and also provides excellent customer service, in addition to making excellent cigars), and that his LEs will be every bit as difficult to find. I'm guessing that unless they're re-released, the Drumstick will command a hefty price on the secondary market in a few years, similar to that of the Flying Pigs.
 
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Sorry if this is a repost...

These go on sale tomorrow morning (Friday March 28th) at 11am via the Dojo app only. Any remaining stock will be sold through smokeinn.com on Saturday.

500 bundles of 10 available - $99.50 a bundle
 
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It was also produced in a quantity that made it easy for us who were interested in them to find them.
The demand for the drumstick is a LOT lower than for the Unicos, as Crowned Heads isn't nearly as popular as Drew Estates, that's the only reason why they are easier to find. The drumstick was produced in smaller quantities (1500 boxes of 10) than even the No 9 or T52 Flying Pigs (2000 boxes of 10, IIRC).

I don't think you can say that one company is doing it "right" and the other is doing it "wrong" based on what you've stated. What you've argued is that Jon is doing it right because the stick he made in a smaller quantity is more available than JD's stuff. Crowned Heads stuff is more available simply because the demand isn't nearly as great, that's all. Basically you're arguing that DE should make their brand less popular, or not hype/advertise their product in order to make it easier for you to find.

This is in stark contrast to much of the DE pricing which is high to very high, hard to find, and too often misses the mark in terms of hype produced for the product compared to the value to enjoyment ratio.
The MSRP on most Ligas is $10, the Unicos are $12-14, which isn't all that much higher, but I'll give you that they're higher. However, whether the value to enjoyment ratio is off is subjective, and clearly a large number of folks disagree. Secondly, I find the LP9 -a regular production stick that's as easy to find and at the same price- much better than the Headley Grange, as good as the HG is. Hard-to-find is relative, and the comparison you made to Crowned Heads is unfair - the demand isn't nearly the same for the two brands.
First of all, I never said that one company was doing it "right" and another was doing it "wrong." You said that, not me. Don't put words in my mouth, please. One person asked how the approach was different, and I gave my own personal viewpoint on why I found the approach to be different. That's all. And its not simply about amount of boxes produced either. Allow me to explain why: I don't think Jon is an idiot and if he wanted to make his release super HTF and rare to add hype for the brand he could've. He could've made it an old school Viaje release of 250 boxes and it would've been very exclusive and HTF. But that didn't happen as he made it in a quantity available for all to find and enjoy. Now compare that to a popular DE stick: the Dirty Rat. This stick has been produced for over 3 years now and has been constantly backordered and is decently HTF as a simple internet search won't bring up boxes available to buy and the chances of going down to your local B&M to pick some up is very low, at least it is for most people. In over 3 years they haven't been able to bring up production to come close to satisfying demand? That's ridiculous, so no I'm not "arguing that DE should make their brand less popular, or not hype/advertise their product in order to make it easier for me to find," perhaps they should actually just increase production over the amount of time they've had a product out. And the entry price - for a corona no less - is more than the HG lancero, a much more difficult and expensive size to roll. And that's if you can get Rats at MSRP, which isn't always the case, as a good size local B&M is charging $15.50 for the L40. (MSRP $13.25)

Secondly, where are you going that the MSRP on Ligas is $10? Must be a pretty solid store, because if you want to get them for that price or lower, in my experience you've gotta find deals on boxes. And I'm not saying they're not out there - I know that they are. For example, Famous Outlet recently had boxes that you could grab for $8.50 a stick last month (for robustos.) But thats done now and there aren't any deals that I've seen as good as that recently. Want a single? $12.50 is the entry price here in Detroit, and that's just for a robusto, as a DC or belicoso will run $14+, before any applicable taxes. I'd also like to add that I've also been to B&Ms outside my local area and I haven't seen a $10 MSRP Liga in years.

Lastly, I understand DE makes a more in demand product. That fact doesn't somehow elude or mystify me. But, they have been around longer than Crowned Heads as a major player in the industry and I was around back when Tat was the highest and greatest brand in the land, and no one cared that much about Liga stuff. Hell, I was one of the first ones waiting in line to suck on JD's left nut circa the release of the LP 9 Pigs. Except back then, nobody gave a shit and I was able to stroll down to the local store and pick up singles. T-52 Pigs? Limited? Not for me. Grabbed 3 boxes, days after the store received the shipment, split the stuff with buds, and the fact is no one cared. I say that, because if they did care in the same way they do now then people would've been literally lined up outside the door to buy a true DE LE stick. And DE as a brand was larger back when the Pigs were released then Crowned Heads is at this point in time. While DE was growing their name at the time no doubt, they weren't a player in the marketplace like they are now. Hell, my big local just started carrying Crowned Heads products in the past six months or so. One day, prospective buyers might look back at the Drumstick release as a their own Holy Grail, much as the older Pigs are viewed as for many right now.

Lastly lastly (or P.S.S. if you will,) sorry to continue upon the derailment of this thread. Apologies.
 
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StogieNinja

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First of all, I never said that one company was doing it "right" and another was doing it "wrong." You said that, not me. Don't put words in my mouth, please. One person asked how the approach was different, and I gave my own personal viewpoint on why I found the approach to be different. That's all. And its not simply about amount of boxes produced either. Allow me to explain why: I don't think Jon is an idiot and if he wanted to make his release super HTF and rare to add hype for the brand he could've. He could've made it an old school Viaje release of 250 boxes and it would've been very exclusive and HTF. But that didn't happen as he made it in a quantity available for all to find and enjoy. Now compare that to a popular DE stick: the Dirty Rat. This stick has been produced for over 3 years now and has been constantly backordered and is decently HTF as a simple internet search won't bring up boxes available to buy and the chances of going down to your local B&M to pick some up is very low, at least it is for most people. In over 3 years they haven't been able to bring up production to come close to satisfying demand? That's ridiculous, so no I'm not "arguing that DE should make their brand less popular, or not hype/advertise their product in order to make it easier for me to find," perhaps they should actually just increase production over the amount of time they've had a product out. And the entry price - for a corona no less - is more than the HG lancero, a much more difficult and expensive size to roll. And that's if you can get Rats at MSRP, which isn't always the case, as a good size local B&M is charging $15.50 for the L40. (MSRP $13.25)

Secondly, where are you going that the MSRP on Ligas is $10? Must be a pretty solid store, because if you want to get them for that price or lower, in my experience you've gotta find deals on boxes. And I'm not saying they're not out there - I know that they are. For example, Famous Outlet recently had boxes that you could grab for $8.50 a stick last month (for robustos.) But thats done now and there aren't any deals that I've seen as good as that recently. Want a single? $12.50 is the entry price here in Detroit, and that's just for a robusto, as a DC or belicoso will run $14+, before any applicable taxes. I'd also like to add that I've also been to B&Ms outside my local area and I haven't seen a $10 MSRP Liga in years.

Lastly, I understand DE makes a more in demand product. That fact doesn't somehow elude or mystify me. But, they have been around longer than Crowned Heads as a major player in the industry and I was around back when Tat was the highest and greatest brand in the land, and no one cared that much about Liga stuff. Hell, I was one of the first ones waiting in line to suck on JD's left nut circa the release of the LP 9 Pigs. Except back then, nobody gave a shit and I was able to stroll down to the local store and pick up singles. T-52 Pigs? Limited? Not for me. Grabbed 3 boxes, days after the store received the shipment, split the stuff with buds, and the fact is no one cared. I say that, because if they did care in the same way they do now then people would've been literally lined up outside the door to buy a true DE LE stick. And DE as a brand was larger back when the Pigs were released then Crowned Heads is at this point in time. While DE was growing their name at the time no doubt, they weren't a player in the marketplace like they are now. Hell, my big local just started carrying Crowned Heads products in the past six months or so. One day, prospective buyers might look back at the Drumstick release as a their own Holy Grail, much as the older Pigs are viewed as for many right now.

Lastly lastly (or P.S.S. if you will,) sorry to continue upon the derailment of this thread. Apologies.
I get what your saying, and I apologize for putting words in your mouth. But you basically responded to the question "how is their approach different" by saying you could find Crowned Heads, but not Drew Estate. But it's an unfair comparison. You're saying you prefer Huber's approach, but we haven't see how he'll approach the situation when/if Crowned Heads gains the popularity and cult following of Drew Estates. It's an apples to oranges comparison.

As you said yourself, back when DE was smaller, you could easily find the stuff... so it seems to me from the get go, things were kind of the same. Small company, great people, stellar product. The only difference is time, so how is one approach preferable?

I guess what I'm really getting at is people sure seem to a sour grapes attitude about DE - "I can't get DE's limited stuff, so they're doing something wrong." But there's no shortage of good, mid-range DE product - MUWAT, Undercrown, Nica Rustica, etc.

Would you prefer that DE take shortcuts to increase production numbers on the Unico lineup? I guess what I'm asking is, what do you think Drew Estate is doing wrong? Taking them at face value - that the Unico blends can't be produced in larger quantities without lowering quality of product- what would you have them do? They already put out several cigar lines in the lower-to-mid price range (MUWAT, Undercown, Nica Rustica) so it's not like they're just pumping out high-dollar products or uber-limited stuff.
 
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I get what your saying, and I apologize for putting words in your mouth. But you basically responded to the question "how is their approach different" by saying you could find Crowned Heads, but not Drew Estate. But it's an unfair comparison. You're saying you prefer Huber's approach, but we haven't see how he'll approach the situation when/if Crowned Heads gains the popularity and cult following of Drew Estates. It's an apples to oranges comparison.

As you said yourself, back when DE was smaller, you could easily find the stuff... so it seems to me from the get go, things were kind of the same. Small company, great people, stellar product. The only difference is time, so how is one approach preferable?

I guess what I'm really getting at is people sure seem to a sour grapes attitude about DE - "I can't get DE's limited stuff, so they're doing something wrong." But there's no shortage of good, mid-range DE product - MUWAT, Undercrown, Nica Rustica, etc.

Would you prefer that DE take shortcuts to increase production numbers on the Unico lineup? I guess what I'm asking is, what do you think Drew Estate is doing wrong? Taking them at face value - that the Unico blends can't be produced in larger quantities without lowering quality of product- what would you have them do? They already put out several cigar lines in the lower-to-mid price range (MUWAT, Undercown, Nica Rustica) so it's not like they're just pumping out high-dollar products or uber-limited stuff.
I won't argue that there are plentiful amounts of mid-range products. Out of what you mention I only care for the Undercrown myself, but I know plenty of people like the other stuff and it sells. I get that Liga is a high end brand as well, but there are limits to a cigars worth IMO. When buying a box of LP 9s at $8.50 then hell, its one of the best damn sticks I've ever had for the price. At $12.50, not so much. There just isn't the value there for me personally. The Unicos are much the same for me. L40 at $13.25 (let alone marked up at $15.50 at my local,) not quite hitting a value mark for me but at $10 I wouldn't bitch at all. I know others don't mind and it works for DE and they obviously sell, so why stop a good thing. That's just my own personal opinion.

I also don't mind LE releases when they are released in large enough quantities. Tat would be a great example in that the LE stuff they've put out for the last few years has enough product to satisfy initial demand and then some. I appreciate the fact that Pete Johnson cares about the product and I've read about how he hates secondary market gouging and wants to create enough product for everyone to enjoy. I know some people hate Viaje's approach in that they are a seasonal release company, but every year there will be more Holiday Blends, or HHG, or whatever it is that you like and you can know when to expect them. Opus X is another limited product that gets released only a few times a year. However, the quantity is always sufficient and you don't necessarily have to sprint down to you local B&M to grab some, even though it is an in demand product.

The thing that kills me with the way DE handles the Unicos is twofold: 1. There hasn't been an uptick in production that comes close to satisfying demand even though their oldest Unico, the Dirty Rat is going on 3.5 years old. You're not trying to solve the national debt here, you're making f*&%ing cigars. Figure it out and grow more tobacco. 2. The constant releasing of a limited amount of boxes each month baffles me. They get gobbled up, keep secondary market prices high, and seem to create even more demand by doing things that way (maybe that's point.) Why not just keep rolling the sticks and release larger quantities to the public every quarter, every six months, or have a huge amount to put out for a large annual release? That very sane approach works for Fuente with Anejo's and its nice to be able to get these sticks weeks to months after the initial release date at many B&Ms. These sticks are still an in demand release, they just come with a lot less insanity to be able to grab some. Even if your particular B&M sells out more quickly or certain websites sell them faster, you don't necessarily have to clear out your schedule to be able to locate some. I grabbed a fiver of sharks at the end of January at a local B&M that still had a few in stock and all the other Anejo sizes were plentiful. Now, mostly everything is gone but thats fine its a seasonal release and they'll be here again before you know it. Opus X will only have the one release this year supposedly but I bet it will be a plentiful release and won't fly off shelves in 10 mins. If DE were to release a large quantity every year instead of constantly putting out boxes then you would have time to get prepped for the release, have the money put aside and be able to locate them at a decent amount of B&Ms and would be able to buy a box without much issue. There's still demand, just no insanity and chase. I'd appreciate that approach much more than the way things are done now.
 

Craig Mac

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Took a few tries, but I was able to get the link. Not ordering but just stating if you try a couple times you should be able to get it.
 
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