A kinder, gentler FDA thread -- now with facts! (TL/DR, the sky is not falling)

[Mikenice81]

This isn't about keeping kids away from smokes or vapes. That is an easy excuse. Go back and read comments the chairman and others made in years past. He is an anti-tobacco zealot.

"Tobacco remains the leading cause of death and disease in this country. This is an important moment for consumer protection and a significant proposal that if finalized as written would bring FDA oversight to many new tobacco products,” said FDA Commissioner Margaret A. Hamburg, M.D. “Science-based product regulation is a powerful form of consumer protection that can help reduce the public health burden of tobacco use on the American public, including youth.”

The funny thing is the big guys like Altria support this. Why? Because their companies like Middleton will not be effected. They know this will damage their competition and have negligible effect on them. It is the same thing Marlboro did with the original rules. They supported the regulation because they know it helps secure their market position.

This isn't about kids it is about destroying "smoking culture" and protecting adults from their own choices in the name of the public good. But, let us just ignore the fact that Califf has previously been a paid advisor for the makers of Nicorette to the tune of $85,000. We can also forget that he said, " As a physician, I've seen first-hand the devastating health effects of tobacco use. At the FDA, we must do our job under the Tobacco Control Act to reduce the harms caused by tobacco."

 

[Senor Perfecto]

The FDA is dedicated to protecting the health of Americans.

Tobacco, cigars included, is bad for you. Just because we like to do it and want to be left to ourselves to negatively affect our own health, does not change that. Heroin addicts have the exact same philosophy. "Just leave me alone, man, I'm a grown up!"

We have chosen a hobby that hurts us. Some of us seem to have lost sight of that fact. But let it sink in again, please.

We have chosen a hobby that hurts us.

The organizations that exist to protect us from ourselves are not the enemy. They're doing the right thing. Did they overreach here? I think so. We all think so.

But let's not delude ourselves about what we are putting in our bodies. At the very least, let's not do that.

Let's not be hypocritical and say "Yeah, I choose to to this bad thing to myself" and at the same time condemn anyone or any organization for trying to get us to stop, especially when it is that organization's express purpose to do so.

The plain fact is, if this makes cigars cost more, we can pay it or we can quit. Or we can continue to smoke what we can afford, as we do now.

If this reduces variety, we can smoke fewer lines, or we can quit.

But at least let's not play games with our own conscience. Accept a little bit of responsibility. And accept that there are those watching out for our best interests whether we like it or not. Is it in the interest of the US government to have fewer smokers? Yes it is. We are more of a burden on the economy and healthcare system than nonsmokers are. Especially as we age. So are fat people, and drug users, and people who ride motorcycles and people who drag race. To name a few. Some of those groups own up to that fact and some don't. But all of them should. I try to. And all of them have agencies whose task it is to get them to stop.

Frankly I find a lot of this whining about the FDA to be a byproduct of guilt.

Try to get them to exempt premium cigars, and then, whatever happens, move on with your life. All this "don't tell me what to do" bullshit strikes me as very "mopey teenager" and I don't indulge that in myself or my friends.

 

[driver]

Not to belabor this point, but you are right that Skip makes excellent cigars. He is also one of the most available, intelligent, and thoughtful people in the whole Industry. I don't really take kindly to your assertion that he is somehow selling out his principals by pursuing the exemption for premium cigars that we all want. A blatant mischaracterization of the process here.

Again, this whole idea of a "nanny state" is just a figment of some imaginations. The government creates limits to your freedoms all the time. Ever since the writing of the Constitution, in fact. These things that limit your freedom are called "laws." Limiting your freedom do to things without negative consequences is what a law is. A law against murder limits your freedom to kill with impunity. A law against heroin limits your freedom to make, buy, sell and take heroin without arrest, prosecution and incarceration if you are caught.

And a law against children using tobacco is the same thing. This particular ruling was initially written too broadly. We are taking smart, competent, reasonable steps to get this amended. This is not an excuse for anti-governmentalists to stand on their soapbox and yell about the "nanny state" or "freedom" or anything else. It's an opportunity to make a course correction, and not explode things out of proportion. At best, it is a chance to show the world that cigar lovers and their preferred industry are people like Skip: thoughtful, smart, and willing and able to work to make things right for everyone. Let's not blow that chance by being reactionary hotheads.

Read my first post again, please, and the links I embedded. Essentially, there may be much less to worry about than has been trumpeted in this and other forums, even with *no* changes to the existing ruling.

Understand we are a nation of laws but, we're becoming a nation of ASS WIPERS!
As for you being butt hurt over pointing out typical progressive behavior well get over it. With all due respect

 

[boltman]

The FDA is dedicated to protecting the health of Americans.

Tobacco, cigars included, is bad for you. Just because we like to do it and want to be left to ourselves to negatively affect our own health, does not change that. Heroin addicts have the exact same philosophy. "Just leave me alone, man, I'm a grown up!"

We have chosen a hobby that hurts us. Some of us seem to have lost sight of that fact. But let it sink in again, please.

We have chosen a hobby that hurts us.

The organizations that exist to protect us from ourselves are not the enemy. They're doing the right thing. Did they overreach here? I think so. We all think so.

But let's not delude ourselves about what we are putting in our bodies. At the very least, let's not do that.

Let's not be hypocritical and say "Yeah, I choose to to this bad thing to myself" and at the same time condemn anyone or any organization for trying to get us to stop, especially when it is that organization's express purpose to do so.

The plain fact is, if this makes cigars cost more, we can pay it or we can quit. Or we can continue to smoke what we can afford, as we do now.

If this reduces variety, we can smoke fewer lines, or we can quit.

But at least let's not play games with our own conscience. Accept a little bit of responsibility. And accept that there are those watching out for our best interests whether we like it or not. Is it in the interest of the US government to have fewer smokers? Yes it is. We are more of a burden on the economy and healthcare system than nonsmokers are. Especially as we age. So are fat people, and drug users, and people who ride motorcycles and people who drag race. To name a few. Some of those groups own up to that fact and some don't. But all of them should. I try to. And all of them have agencies whose task it is to get them to stop.

Frankly I find a lot of this whining about the FDA to be a byproduct of guilt.

Try to get them to exempt premium cigars, and then, whatever happens, move on with your life. All this "don't tell me what to do" bullshit strikes me as very "mopey teenager" and I don't indulge that in myself or my friends.

I guess it is safe to assume you are not a libertarian.

 

[Senor Perfecto]

Understand we are a nation of laws but, we're becoming a nation of ASS WIPERS!
As for you being butt hurt over pointing out typical progressive behavior well get over it. With all due respect

It is precisely that kind of thinking -- "anything progressive is bad if I am a republican" -- that has created our awful political climate today. I don't perpetuate that. There are plenty of liberal businessmen out there, man. And they all want to make money. They don't see those things as being across purposes. Nor, I am guessing, do they fail to see the shades of gray on either side of the black and white POV you expressed in your post.

I guess it is safe to assume you are not a libertarian.

Haha!

 

[Mikenice81]

So, believing that as a grown man with a college education I am smart enough to make an informed decision makes me a mopey teenager?

I've been in this fight for two years. So, to call me a mopey teenager shows that you are far more interested in labeling and assuming than discussion. I have been writing letters, making phone calls, talking to reporters, and informing others. Why? Because I believe in free choice with informed consent. I don't believe pro-choice ends with abortion, weed, or gay marriage. If that makes me a mopey teenager the Founding Fathers must have been tantrum throwing toddlers. You believe it is our job to live in the government's best interest. I believe it is the government's job to exist for protecting me against violations of my natural rights by force, deception, or fraud. Our world views are as different as night and day. That doesn't mean you have to make it personal.

Oh, and since you want to compare cigars to heroin, Canada is considering making medicinal heroin available because it works better than FDA approved Methadone for helping rehabilitate hardcore addicts. Yet, our government classifies it and marijuana as having no value. So, yeah, I trust the FDA to regulate in my best interest about as much as I trust the NSA not to snoop on average Americans.

 

[boltman]

So, believing that as a grown man with a college education I am smart enough to make an informed decision makes me a mopey teenager?

I've been in this fight for two years. So, to call me a mopey teenager shows that you are far more interested in labeling and assuming than discussion. I have been writing letters, making phone calls, talking to reporters, and informing others. Why? Because I believe in free choice with informed consent. I don't believe pro-choice ends with abortion, weed, or gay marriage. If that makes me a mopey teenager the Founding Fathers must have been tantrum throwing toddlers. You believe it is our job to live in the government's best interest. I believe it is the government's job to exist for protecting me against violations of my natural rights by force, deception, or fraud. Our world views are as different as night and day. That doesn't mean you have to make it personal.

Oh, and since you want to compare cigars to heroin, Canada is considering making medicinal heroin available because it works better than FDA approved Methadone for helping rehabilitate hardcore addicts. Yet, our government classifies it and marijuana as having no value. So, yeah, I trust the FDA to regulate in my best interest about as much as I trust the NSA not to snoop on average Americans.

I guess it is safe to assume you are a libertarian.

 

[Mr.Draned]

 

[El Chingon]

Bullshit, we shouldn't have to pay more and the manufacturers shouldn't have to charge more because some Govt. geek is sticking his fingers in our business. That mind set will only help them with their agenda. http://savetheleaf.org

#savemefromthepeopletryingtosaveme


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

preach!

 

[El Chingon]

"Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." ~ Frederick Douglass

 

[Dick Leighton]

The FDA is dedicated to protecting the health of Americans.

Tobacco, cigars included, is bad for you. Just because we like to do it and want to be left to ourselves to negatively affect our own health, does not change that. Heroin addicts have the exact same philosophy. "Just leave me alone, man, I'm a grown up!"

We have chosen a hobby that hurts us. Some of us seem to have lost sight of that fact. But let it sink in again, please.

We have chosen a hobby that hurts us.

The organizations that exist to protect us from ourselves are not the enemy. They're doing the right thing. Did they overreach here? I think so. We all think so.

But let's not delude ourselves about what we are putting in our bodies. At the very least, let's not do that.

Let's not be hypocritical and say "Yeah, I choose to to this bad thing to myself" and at the same time condemn anyone or any organization for trying to get us to stop, especially when it is that organization's express purpose to do so.

The plain fact is, if this makes cigars cost more, we can pay it or we can quit. Or we can continue to smoke what we can afford, as we do now.

If this reduces variety, we can smoke fewer lines, or we can quit.

But at least let's not play games with our own conscience. Accept a little bit of responsibility. And accept that there are those watching out for our best interests whether we like it or not. Is it in the interest of the US government to have fewer smokers? Yes it is. We are more of a burden on the economy and healthcare system than nonsmokers are. Especially as we age. So are fat people, and drug users, and people who ride motorcycles and people who drag race. To name a few. Some of those groups own up to that fact and some don't. But all of them should. I try to. And all of them have agencies whose task it is to get them to stop.

Frankly I find a lot of this whining about the FDA to be a byproduct of guilt.

Try to get them to exempt premium cigars, and then, whatever happens, move on with your life. All this "don't tell me what to do" bullshit strikes me as very "mopey teenager" and I don't indulge that in myself or my friends.

While I agree that it's not necessarily a bad thing for cigars to be regulated by the FDA, like other tobacco, I think the main issue and the one we are all fighting is the grandfather date. Yes, the increase in cost per product sucks but we can deal with it.
The grandfather date will be detrimental to the small, boutique brands in the industry as well as taking away a lot of the luster that we all enjoy. The "art" of the craft if you will.

A similar comparison would be the FDA telling all breweries that brew 15,000 U.S. beer barrels or less, that their product isn't allowed on the shelves anymore. It only benefits the heavy hitters like Budweiser or Coors and they continue to advertise Bud Light Parties and NFL games. It goes against the little guy and the ordinary American's business.

The whole point being, how does the grandfather date and it's effects stop kids from smoking cigars? It doesn't. Romeo y Julieta and Montecristo can still produce the same cigars they've always been making. But Steve Saka and Co. might have to close up shop.

 

[THEMISCHMAN]

If the FDA was only concerned with ensuring that companies were only including pure tobacco with no extra additives that would be fine. I would have no problem with them ensuring that there isn't high levels of pesticides or any other unnatural chemical in the product. If the public isn't aware that tobacco products can be harmful to their health then they have been living with their head in the sand. Placing warning stickers and making the consumer feel bad for purchasing the product goes against the free market. I'm all for children not smoking at a young age. Just like everything else the government tries to regulate they never speak about ramping up education. They could easily reallocate a majority of the tax money to promote more this education in schools.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Jbay555]

Brought enough for everyone!

 

[StogieNinja]

The FDA is dedicated to protecting the health of Americans.

What an organization was formed to do, and what it does, aren't always the same thing. As citizens, when a government entity overreaches, we should fight that overreach.

Tobacco, cigars included, is bad for you. Just because we like to do it and want to be left to ourselves to negatively affect our own health, does not change that. Heroin addicts have the exact same philosophy. "Just leave me alone, man, I'm a grown up!"

We have chosen a hobby that hurts us. Some of us seem to have lost sight of that fact. But let it sink in again, please.

We have chosen a hobby that hurts us.

The organizations that exist to protect us from ourselves are not the enemy. They're doing the right thing. Did they overreach here? I think so. We all think so.

But let's not delude ourselves about what we are putting in our bodies. At the very least, let's not do that.

Let's not be hypocritical and say "Yeah, I choose to to this bad thing to myself" and at the same time condemn anyone or any organization for trying to get us to stop, especially when it is that organization's express purpose to do so.

You are comparing apples to oranges. Chain smoking cigars is bad for your health, nobody disputes that. But the research done suggests that there are minimal health risks, but they're almost statistically insignificant for moderate smokers. Yes there are potential health risks to this hobby, but let's not pretend its anything like the risks heroin addicts, or even cigarette addicts chose to accept. They're not even close to the same thing in terms of risk, either to ourselves or society.

Additionally, it's not the FDA's job to stop adults from smoking. Even their own mission statement argues their job is to 1)regulate tobacco, and 2)prevent minors from smoking:

"FDA also has responsibility for regulating the manufacturing, marketing and distribution of tobacco products to protect the public health and to reduce tobacco use by minors"

Again, it's not their job to stop grown adults from enjoying a cigar.

The plain fact is, if this makes cigars cost more, we can pay it or we can quit. Or we can continue to smoke what we can afford, as we do now.

If this reduces variety, we can smoke fewer lines, or we can quit.

I'm not sure what your point is here; yes, we can chose to stop smoking if costs increase. But you're acting like that's the only choice here, and it's not. We can continue to fight this thing, and we ought to.

But at least let's not play games with our own conscience. Accept a little bit of responsibility. And accept that there are those watching out for our best interests whether we like it or not. Is it in the interest of the US government to have fewer smokers? Yes it is. We are more of a burden on the economy and healthcare system than nonsmokers are. Especially as we age. So are fat people, and drug users, and people who ride motorcycles and people who drag race. To name a few. Some of those groups own up to that fact and some don't. But all of them should. I try to. And all of them have agencies whose task it is to get them to stop.

I don't think anyone is refusing to accept responsibility for anything; what we are rejecting is a government agency overstepping its bounds in order to push an agenda.

Frankly I find a lot of this whining about the FDA to be a byproduct of guilt.

Try to get them to exempt premium cigars, and then, whatever happens, move on with your life. All this "don't tell me what to do" bullshit strikes me as very "mopey teenager" and I don't indulge that in myself or my friends.

All of this "don't tell me what to do" stuff can strike you any way you want, but liberty is kind of the foundation upon which the country was founded on. And it's not even the main point. The main point is that the FDA is overstepping it's bounds, and it's bad for all of us who enjoy this hobby. You seem to be suggesting we should just suck it up and live with it... which we will, if it comes to that. But that doesn't mean we should be happy about it or go quietly into the night.

 

[Bubbajs]

What an organization was formed to do, and what it does, aren't always the same thing. As citizens, when a government entity overreaches, we should fight that overreach.



You are comparing apples to oranges. Chain smoking cigars is bad for your health, nobody disputes that. But the research done suggests that there are minimal health risks, but they're almost statistically insignificant for moderate smokers. Yes there are potential health risks to this hobby, but let's not pretend its anything like the risks heroin addicts, or even cigarette addicts chose to accept. They're not even close to the same thing in terms of risk, either to ourselves or society.

Additionally, it's not the FDA's job to stop adults from smoking. Even their own mission statement argues their job is to 1)regulate tobacco, and 2)prevent minors from smoking:

"FDA also has responsibility for regulating the manufacturing, marketing and distribution of tobacco products to protect the public health and to reduce tobacco use by minors"

Again, it's not their job to stop grown adults from enjoying a cigar.



I'm not sure what your point is here; yes, we can chose to stop smoking if costs increase. But you're acting like that's the only choice here, and it's not. We can continue to fight this thing, and we ought to.



I don't think anyone is refusing to accept responsibility for anything; what we are rejecting is a government agency overstepping its bounds in order to push an agenda.



All of this "don't tell me what to do" stuff can strike you any way you want, but liberty is kind of the foundation upon which the country was founded on. And it's not even the main point. The main point is that the FDA is overstepping it's bounds, and it's bad for all of us who enjoy this hobby. You seem to be suggesting we should just suck it up and live with it... which we will, if it comes to that. But that doesn't mean we should be happy about it or go quietly into the night.

Amen brother. Well said!!

 

[ScoutReconSGT]

I do not often report from other cigar sources, but this is a biggie for a lot of people and probably justified.
https://www.reddit.com/r/cigars/comments/4j3vp4/crunching_the_numbers_with_the_fda/

https://www.reddit.com/r/cigars/comments/4j7fsy/crunching_the_numbers_with_the_fda_part_ii/

This guy sounds like he knows what he is talking about. He is spouting facts and experience.

Bottom line: expect somewhere between a $.01 and $1.00 increase per stick. The $1 increase only likely affecting the very very limited fancy sticks. Most will be in the .10 increase range. I think we can handle $2.40 more for that box of Jericho Hill, yeah? To help keep kids off cigarettes/vapes/etc.?

The sky isn't falling and the gubmint is not out to get you

Well... YOU, maybe...

Perfect, was waiting to see past the chaos. I just hope it is more like this than the craziness some people are claiming. I am curious about infused cigars too however.

 

[BourbonBinder]

Stogie Ninja for president!!! Well said. I like your insights.

 

[BourbonBinder]

Not to belabor this point, but you are right that Skip makes excellent cigars. He is also one of the most available, intelligent, and thoughtful people in the whole Industry. I don't really take kindly to your assertion that he is somehow selling out his principals by pursuing the exemption for premium cigars that we all want. A blatant mischaracterization of the process here.

Again, this whole idea of a "nanny state" is just a figment of some imaginations. The government creates limits to your freedoms all the time. Ever since the writing of the Constitution, in fact. These things that limit your freedom are called "laws." Limiting your freedom do to things without negative consequences is what a law is. A law against murder limits your freedom to kill with impunity. A law against heroin limits your freedom to make, buy, sell and take heroin without arrest, prosecution and incarceration if you are caught.

And a law against children using tobacco is the same thing. This particular ruling was initially written too broadly. We are taking smart, competent, reasonable steps to get this amended. This is not an excuse for anti-governmentalists to stand on their soapbox and yell about the "nanny state" or "freedom" or anything else. It's an opportunity to make a course correction, and not explode things out of proportion. At best, it is a chance to show the world that cigar lovers and their preferred industry are people like Skip: thoughtful, smart, and willing and able to work to make things right for everyone. Let's not blow that chance by being reactionary hotheads.

Read my first post again, please, and the links I embedded. Essentially, there may be much less to worry about than has been trumpeted in this and other forums, even with *no* changes to the existing ruling.

I'm going to ask a question that most people are probably thinking by now. Do you work for the FDA or know anyone that does?

 

[StogieNinja]

I'm going to ask a question that most people are probably thinking by now. Do you work for the FDA or know anyone that does?

I think Paul (@Senor Perfecto) is just trying to project some calm into the situation, which I actually do applaud. I disagree with him on most of what he things about the issue, as you can see above, but the thing I do agree with is that the sky isn't falling, and mass panic won't help anything.

 

[Senor Perfecto]

I'm going to ask a question that most people are probably thinking by now. Do you work for the FDA or know anyone that does?

No I do not work for the fucking FDA.