Is it fermented or not ?

[Bruce T.]

I haven't rolled much in the last couple of years but this forum has pushed me over the edge and I'm ready to order some leaf.
I've ordered from Leaf Only in the past. They say their leaf is "fermented". I was happy with the product. This time I am considering getting some leaf from Whole Leaf but they say their leaf is "naturally aged". I have smoked unfermented cigar tobacco in the past and was surprised by how harsh it is so I'm concerned about purchasing leaf that may not be fermented. Does anyone have any insight or experience that can help me decide?

 

[blisscigarco]

I haven't rolled much in the last couple of years but this forum has pushed me over the edge and I'm ready to order some leaf.
I've ordered from Leaf Only in the past. They say their leaf is "fermented". I was happy with the product. This time I am considering getting some leaf from Whole Leaf but they say their leaf is "naturally aged". I have smoked unfermented cigar tobacco in the past and was surprised by how harsh it is so I'm concerned about purchasing leaf that may not be fermented. Does anyone have any insight or experience that can help me decide?

Hi, can you hit us with a link where LO uses the word "fermented" for their leaf? Thanks.

 

[webmost]

I haven't rolled much in the last couple of years but this forum has pushed me over the edge and I'm ready to order some leaf.
I've ordered from Leaf Only in the past. They say their leaf is "fermented". I was happy with the product. This time I am considering getting some leaf from Whole Leaf but they say their leaf is "naturally aged". I have smoked unfermented cigar tobacco in the past and was surprised by how harsh it is so I'm concerned about purchasing leaf that may not be fermented. Does anyone have any insight or experience that can help me decide?

For thirty bucks you can buy a blend kit from WLT whicih will allow you to evaluate.

I'd say us rollin addicts buy from both for variety. So tonight for instance I wrapped WLT H2k round LO olor bound round WLT corojo... only cause WLT doesn't sell olor. Most will agree that WLT has way superior service, packaging and promptness. LO sells quarter pounds which is nice when you want to test a leaf. I don't see where fermenting is the diff between them.

 

[Marc L]

https://www.leafonly.com/tobacco-harvesting-curing-fermenting.php
Fermenting (A.K.A. sweating) Tobacco Leaves
This is the process by which ammonia is released from the leaf to make it more sociable. It can be done by heaping the tobacco into large piles called pylons that raise the temperature and humidity, or by use of a kiln with a heater and humidifier. Under the raised temperature and humidity, enzymes in the leaf cause it to ferment. It is not necessary to spray a fermenting solution on the leaf as some suggest - the enzymes will do it naturally. Sometimes this is also referred to as curing. This system of maturing tobacco leaves came from the days when tobacco was shipped by sail. The ship would sit in port for a few weeks, with very humid temperatures and bails stacked tight together. When the tobacco reached it's destination, it was found to smell and taste sweeter. There are two methods of fermenting, stacking and kiln fermenting.

http://fairtradetobacco.com/forums/35-Fermenting

 

[Marc L]

You should be willing to do additional fermentation if needed.
I prefer to use wholeleaftobacco.com.
It is what you are looking for. One of there kits is the short route. Better yet, all of them.

 

[Marc L]

 

[webmost]

Found this among their FAQs at LO:

Is your tobacco by the pound cured and fermented?
Yes, most of our tobacco leaf by the pound has been cured and fermented. It's important to keep in mind that tobacco leaves are fermenting and curing on their own naturally over time as well, especially with the change of ambient temperature and seasons.​

But I am going to ask the scientists and horticulturalists at FTT this question: Does fermentation dissipate ammonia inherent in the leaf, or does the process of fermentation create ammonia which must be dissipated after fermentation? I'm betting on the latter. There's no doubt fermentation mellows the leaf, as does aging your cigar after rolling. There's also no doubt you can get a fine cigar from cured as opposed to fermented leaf. Wrapper especially works nicely just cured. Take, for example, your Connecticut wrapper. That tan unfermented leaf makes a smooth creamy wrapper flavor which is in many respects superior to darker fermented CT wrap, for my money.

Anyhoo... I gotta stop looking at forums now and get some work done, so that I will have time to start up another batch. Determined to knock out a dime of UP matalotos before the weekend is out.

 

[Bruce T.]

Found this among their FAQs at LO:

Is your tobacco by the pound cured and fermented?
Yes, most of our tobacco leaf by the pound has been cured and fermented. It's important to keep in mind that tobacco leaves are fermenting and curing on their own naturally over time as well, especially with the change of ambient temperature and seasons.​

​

This is the quote from LO that states that they have "cured and fermented" leaves while WL states that their leaves are "cured" To me the words "curing" and "aging" are synonymous. While they improve the tobacco they do not replace fermenting. There is a chemical process that takes place during fermenting that can only happen at elevated temperatures (see Marc's post #4 above) so curing won't do it, unless they use "curing" to mean fermenting.

Many of the rollers here have used leaf from both suppliers and seem happy with both products. I'm willing to accept that but I continue to be curious about the difference between the two. Does the "non-fermented" leaf from WL produce a more harsh cigar?

 

[Bruce T.]

One more observation. In the nice textbook scan that Marc provided we can see that the word "curing" is used for the initial drying where the moisture and chlorophyll dissipate from the leaves leaving them a beautiful brown color. After that is complete, all the tobacco goes through a fermentation stage.

 

[webmost]

Yeah, I would not get too exegetical about all that. In the same FAQs just an item or two above, they say all their tobacco is grown in Connecticut. Obviously, neither their Honduran nor the Ecuadorian nor etc. are grown in CT. By the same token, when WLT says their stuff is cured, that doesn't preclude the fermentation which is one phase of curing. My advice: You'll get more traction trying it out than you will by splitting hairs. Me, I like Don's customer service ethic, so I get most of my stuff there. I do like some items not available at WLT so I get them the other place.

Try a blend, such as the melodioso or azucarado or etc. For thirty bucks, what the hell, you can't go wrong.
http://wholeleaftobacco.com/Whole-Leaf-Cigar-Blends_c30.htm

 

[Bruce T.]

Yeah, I would not get too exegetical about all that. In the same FAQs just an item or two above, they say all their tobacco is grown in Connecticut. Obviously, neither their Honduran nor the Ecuadorian nor etc. are grown in CT. By the same token, when WLT says their stuff is cured, that doesn't preclude the fermentation which is one phase of curing. My advice: You'll get more traction trying it out than you will by splitting hairs. Me, I like Don's customer service ethic, so I get most of my stuff there. I do like some items not available at WLT so I get them the other place.

Try a blend, such as the melodioso or azucarado or etc. For thirty bucks, what the hell, you can't go wrong.
http://wholeleaftobacco.com/Whole-Leaf-Cigar-Blends_c30.htm

Yeah, I wondered about that "grown in Connecticut" stuff. That's why I'm asking about this fermenting thing. It is hard to figure out exactly what they mean. The best is to get opinions from my roller brothers regarding any smoking difference between the two suppliers.

I agree that $30 is not worth worrying about, but as a Canadian, after factoring in the currency exchange, extra shipping, and import duties on tobacco (very high), the $30 turns into $70 Canadian. But it's still worth it. Winters are long and if I can't smoke then I need to get back into rolling.l

 

[webmost]

Yeah, I wondered about that "grown in Connecticut" stuff. That's why I'm asking about this fermenting thing. It is hard to figure out exactly what they mean. The best is to get opinions from my roller brothers regarding any smoking difference between the two suppliers.

I agree that $30 is not worth worrying about, but as a Canadian, after factoring in the currency exchange, extra shipping, and import duties on tobacco (very high), the $30 turns into $70 Canadian. But it's still worth it. Winters are long and if I can't smoke then I need to get back into rolling.l

Gummint!

 

[Marc L]

Here is webmost thread at FTT. >> http://fairtradetobacco.com/threads/7102-where-s-ammonia-come-from?p=129960#post129960

Here is the answer to his question

"Most of the ammonia released during aging or fermentation is created from the enzymatic breakdown of albuminous proteins.
Formulas of amino acids: http://www.imgt.org/IMGTeducation/Ai...ids/formuleAA/
Proteins are made up of various amino acids. The structure of every amino acid (e.g. "amine containing acid") has one NH or NH2 component.

The amino acid serine.
When this nitrogen entity is released, it reacts with the hydrogen in water to form NH3, which is ammonia."

That scanned image above shows just how complicated it can get. You should be willing to do additional fermentation if needed.
If you all don't want to do the work to develop the relationship with the leaf to learn first hand what it means to make a cigar, then this might not be for you.
I hate to talk like this but I hate more to discourage anyone from doing something that could be so very gratifying.
My short spiel is know your leaf. I believe there is no substitute for the relationship building with the leaf.
Having to prepare leaf for cigar assembly in addition to what you buy I believe, is unavoidable.
A lot of what you'll get will be different as far as classification.
Meaning, caricature in body or weight / thickness, color, qualities like burn, aroma, taste. All which will determine what and how much preparation will need to be done.
I believe that the final preparations should not be done before the manufacturer. Because it would not store well.
In addition, there are things being done that manufacturers will not talk about. A master blender is not going to tell us his petuning method or recipes. They are there trade secrets.
I want leaf straight out of a bail. I don't want any additional handling being done that is not necessary. I want to be the one doing the final sorting and classifying.
I'm very happy to be able to get leaf that has been prepared properly for bailing.
Something else, curing, refers to color curing. Which gets the green out in the barn. Fermentation is a controlled composting.

 

[webmost]

So the short answer without dead languages and recondite symbols is: fermentation makes ammonia.

Wet it, warm it, and it will stink.

 

[Marc L]

So, I'm wasting my time basically?

 

[blisscigarco]

So, I'm wasting my time basically?

No, my friend, you are not.

Without delving deeply into chemistry and molecular compounding of NH3: ammonia is a byproduct of fermentation; but in the fermentation of tobacco there are tons of other chemical processes and byproducts besides ammonia. Many of those other processes are what make tobacco taste good, be smooth, burn well, etc. etc., all the positive things we look for in good leaf. You can't just go, "Gee, I don't like that byproduct, ammonia, because it takes a while to completely gas it off the leaf and I just ain't got time for that shit; so I won't ferment," and end up with decent leaf. You'll end up with low-grade leaf.

But gosh, I bet you knew this empirically and were only asking rhetorically.

 

[Marc L]

You know your right B. I was kidding as much as web was. but, thanks for thinking so.

 

[webmost]

So, I'm wasting my time basically?

Why take it that way?

 

[Marc L]

Why take it that way?

Well, because you know how I can appreciate your way with words. and, your ability to send me in a direction wondering if your kidding, makes me want to see if you know when I am. Sorry about that.

 

[Bruce T.]

This has been a very interesting thread. Thanks for joining in. The actual answer to my original question about leaf from Whole Leaf has been answered by Don, the owner. He tells me all their "cigar" tobacco has been fermented! I guess that explains why it smokes so well.