Cigar Boards are selling

[jwintosh]

rock on Eric, rock on!!

 

[Kurtdesign1]

In the past (and general policy), I've let problems and discussions of other cigar communities not spill over into our community. Since BOTL is our community, the focus should be on that. Thinking positive and building our home rather than criticizing what others are doing; a proud and upheld trait that sets our cigar community apart from others.

With that said, there are two reasons why this thread still remains. One as a way of communicating with members of those affected communities who have chosen to come here and call BOTL their new home. It comes across to me that legitimate concerns from those have questioned their former community have either resulted in consequences or not being answered. While I nor others here can answer the questions, we do have a solution - our community.

The second reason is that I wanted to read the reactions after waiting 8 months. Jon did contact me in February about buying BOTL.org. After a week of communication I declined to sell. Rod made a few good points that I feel would be redundant in saying as well (unknown outsider, etc). Most (but not all) responses within this thread are what I expected. In the end, it made me more appreciative of what our community is really about. I did not want to give the community that has been loyal and put trust into this community throughout the years to feel I "sold out". BOTL is not what it is because of me but what YOU have contributed. For me to take the credit for the value of BOTL would be a travesty.

With that said, I'm asking everyone that we move forward. What Jon does with the websites he has purchased as well as those who sold are their business now. If we instead focus our energy on our community by upstanding the quality of membership and contributions, we will all benefit and have a place to call home - evermore.

I understand what you're saying here Eric and I agree with it in normal situations. Granted, I will recognize that this is your board and your rules are gospel. That said, I think you're ideas of isolationism are respectable but detrimental to the collective good of our group. We have an opportunity here to shape the future of our existence. Yes, when ICC went through it's crap last year (2 years ago?), it spilled onto other boards and caused gunk to build up everywhere. No one wants that unfounded & unnecessary drama. This situation is necessary. Our very way of conducting ourselves; that being a community where the passion is first and the business is second, is being challenged. This COULD be a final straw in turning our political perception to one that we have worked away from in the recent years (RTDA - IPCPR, PUFF.com - no separation from cigarettes). The acceptance & lethargy we show here may well damn us in the future.

 

[Angry Bill]

But, some of our members are on other sites, so we are not isolated. We can works together with other groups by putting ouot information related to our lifestyle and passion. By allowing one person to own many of the forums, you remove brotherhood from the mix. Just my two cents worth.

And I love the fact that there is not drama here either. hehe.

 

[Boston Matt]

The acceptance & lethargy we show here may well damn us in the future.

But, and I am new here so take this with a grain of salt, it doesn't really appear as if this site has demonstrated either "acceptance" or "lethargy". In fact, it sounds like "acceptance" was the farthest thing from Eric's mind when he passed up the opportunity to personally profit from Mr. Caputo's offer in order to preserve the boards as a community of brothers where PIF is more than just a catchy saying...

Again, I'm new, so if I don't know what I'm talking about...fair enough.

Personally, I wish those other boards the best of luck. I don't think its a foregone conclusion that things will change for the worse. Having said that, I much prefer the more closely knit atmosphere that I've found here.

 

[Greg]

I understand what you're saying here Eric and I agree with it in normal situations. Granted, I will recognize that this is your board and your rules are gospel. That said, I think you're ideas of isolationism are respectable but detrimental to the collective good of our group. We have an opportunity here to shape the future of our existence. Yes, when ICC went through it's crap last year (2 years ago?), it spilled onto other boards and caused gunk to build up everywhere. No one wants that unfounded & unnecessary drama. This situation is necessary. Our very way of conducting ourselves; that being a community where the passion is first and the business is second, is being challenged. This COULD be a final straw in turning our political perception to one that we have worked away from in the recent years (RTDA - IPCPR, PUFF.com - no separation from cigarettes). The acceptance & lethargy we show here may well damn us in the future.

I'm not sure exactly what you are implying here. Is it that we should be highly critical of said merger? Be more vocal in our criticism? :dunno:

 

[RonC]

eric and dave are doing a fine job just as they are. Look at the history of other boards.

cigarweakly - quick growth, then down the tubes.
clubstogie - huge growth, bought out, now mass departures
numerous others have come and gone.
lawsuits, and various other bullshit.

meanwhile, here we are. slow, but steady growth.
in most part, the drama queens from other boards dont come here because they dont have a big enough audience, and dont get the desired respose to their posts.

same with the troublemakers that go board to board, they just dont see to come here.

personally, i like the isolationism.

i can go elsewhere to see drama and bullshit.

this is nice and peaceful. it seems that everyone fits in just fine.

 

[uncelnino]

I'm not sure exactly what you are implying here. Is it that we should be highly critical of said merger? Be more vocal in our criticism? :dunno:

+1....what?:squinteye

 

[dpricenator]

eric and dave are doing a fine job just as they are. Look at the history of other boards.

cigarweakly - quick growth, then down the tubes.
clubstogie - huge growth, bought out, now mass departures
numerous others have come and gone.
lawsuits, and various other bullshit.

meanwhile, here we are. slow, but steady growth.
in most part, the drama queens from other boards dont come here because they dont have a big enough audience, and dont get the desired respose to their posts.

same with the troublemakers that go board to board, they just dont see to come here.

personally, i like the isolationism.

i can go elsewhere to see drama and bullshit.

this is nice and peaceful. it seems that everyone fits in just fine.

yeah I'm in the middle of some drama on another board and it's just some trolls being argumentative. I'm to the point after only a few months, of being done with it.

 

[smokinghole]

I started at another board a few months ago but the atmosphere just doesn't really jive with me. I did meet a couple real cool brothers there that I will certainly keep in touch with. I love this place it is home for me. When I first started posting in a cigar forum it was over five years ago then I stopped. During my boredom of Turkey I found this place and have been hooked ever since.

As others have said. I love the isolationism and the calm non-drama traits of this place. The trouble makers seem to stay away and the one I saw that came by was swiftly dealt with and gone. That guy almost convinced me that GOF were the greatest cigars ever. :eyebrow:

 

[Poni]

I think what KurtDesign is saying is we shouldn't close this thread because it talks about other boards.

 

[dpricenator]

The trouble makers seem to stay away and the one I saw that came by was swiftly dealt with and gone. That guy almost convinced me that GOF were the greatest cigars ever. :eyebrow:

GODOFFIRE911 FOR PRESIDENT:applause::applause::applause:

 

[Kurtdesign1]

But, and I am new here so take this with a grain of salt, it doesn't really appear as if this site has demonstrated either "acceptance" or "lethargy". In fact, it sounds like "acceptance" was the farthest thing from Eric's mind when he passed up the opportunity to personally profit from Mr. Caputo's offer in order to preserve the boards as a community of brothers where PIF is more than just a catchy saying...

Again, I'm new, so if I don't know what I'm talking about...fair enough.

Personally, I wish those other boards the best of luck. I don't think its a foregone conclusion that things will change for the worse. Having said that, I much prefer the more closely knit atmosphere that I've found here.

I understand what you're saying about how Eric's post is addressing the situation saying that we will not involve ourselves in the situation. What I'M saying is that this isolationism is likely to cause more damage than good. Read my previous posts in this thread that are below.

This week's Dogwatch Cigar Radio is great for discussion about Mr.Caupto. I'd personally like to thank Mark Aub (sp?) of Brother of the Leaf and Palio Cutters for his illuminating testimonial.

Mark (as well as Bob) expressed great background on what has happened in the past as well as what can be expected to happen in the future. Both positive and negative aspects of this venture were brought up that led to formidable thoughts & ideas to be expressed.

What I take out of their conversation is a clear idea of what needs to be done and I ask that you all follow me in one step or another: embrace or avoid. This is simple enough but will require action on our part for both avenues.


If we embrace these efforts of combining boards we need to be influential in conveying what we want! Yes the new owners prerogative will be most important to him but if we demand what we need, he'll have to listen or risk losing his cash cow. I don't know if there will be an open public request for ideas but even if there isn't we should be vocal. Tell him what you want or you have no reason to complain if you otherwise wouldn't have it! Realize that a large, collective organization could be a GREAT resource for having political clout. The CRA could gain much from puff .com and in turn, so could the average smoker. BUT(!!), we must be mindful of this giant we create to ensure it meets our needs.

If we cast off these efforts of combining boards we need to be just as influential!! The main benefit to having a collective forum is a collective voice. Yes, other perks exist but we reside in a lifestyle that benefits from the 'brotherhood' of it's citizens. Most any perk that a large forum could share, a quaint one could too (e.g. MFG interviews, sample cigars, etc.) I am getting sidetracked. What we need to do if we avoid PUFF is be diligent with our individual voice. We need to make a pact amongst ourselves to stand up for our rights as we would if we were a large group. Yes, strength in numbers is a reality but who's to say we can't come together a a collection of smaller 'boutique' boards or individuals to carry the same message as one large gathering would? 50,000 members or 50,000 supporters is the same thing; a big voice. So, my brothers, believe me when I say that avoiding the new conglomerate may well be a choice you make but it still comes with responsibility.

Wal-Mart is the corner store of the 21st century; perhaps this is the cigar analogy for that. Perhaps we're sick of "lower prices" and instead want personal, catered attention. This decision remains to be seen. Whatever choice we make as a united group, I support. Just as long as we make an informed, committed decision, I'll be there in the trenches with all of you. When considering the gravitation that occurs within this very hobby, I do think that one decision is the clear favorite. I don't tend to see many guys who smoke for 10 years only to settle on General Cigar as their favorite mfg...

(Also posted on Vintagecigarclub .com)

I understand what you're saying here Eric and I agree with it in normal situations. Granted, I will recognize that this is your board and your rules are gospel. That said, I think you're ideas of isolationism are respectable but detrimental to the collective good of our group. We have an opportunity here to shape the future of our existence. Yes, when ICC went through it's crap last year (2 years ago?), it spilled onto other boards and caused gunk to build up everywhere. No one wants that unfounded & unnecessary drama. This situation is necessary. Our very way of conducting ourselves; that being a community where the passion is first and the business is second, is being challenged. This COULD be a final straw in turning our political perception to one that we have worked away from in the recent years (RTDA - IPCPR, PUFF.com - no separation from cigarettes). The acceptance & lethargy we show here may well damn us in the future.

 

[Boston Matt]

I understand what you're saying about how Eric's post is addressing the situation saying that we will not involve ourselves in the situation. What I'M saying is that this isolationism is likely to cause more damage than good. Read my previous posts in this thread that are below.

Brother, I respectfully choose to disagree.

I think "collective good" as you've defined it is fine, but shouldn't be held to be some objectively verifiable universal truth. In other words, while I see the value of your goals and your call to action, I'm not sure that "activism" is the only route to success among Brothers.

Personally, this board to me is more about making friends, learning from my fellow Brothers, developing my appreciation for the hobby, and pursuing the gentlemanly lifestyle. The things you mention might be important...in fact, I'm quite sure they are, but I think they're more important to you than they are to others.

But again, just my two cents. I don't want to have the last word and run because that is decidedly ungentlemanly but I'd also like to be careful to respect Eric/David's wishes as previously expressed in this thread. In other words, I think I'm out (but available in PM).

Best of luck to you,
Matt

 

[Kurtdesign1]

I will clarify my post where I implied we were showing "acceptance & lethargy".

I should have split this post into multiple thoughts. As written, I can see how you guys were confused: Puff .com can make or break our hobby IN MULTIPLE WAYS. Some of which include:
-Removing the distance the RTDA/IPCPR has tried to create between cigars as a passion and tobacco as a nicotine delivery method
-Changing the "brotherhood" aspect of our hobby by commercializing it & making "the business of cigars" more important than "the lifestyle that is cigars".

In other words, I think the above is worth fighting for IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. (see my original post) If we support Mr Captuo by becoming members of his site, we should FIGHT to have our desires heard (NO cigarette advertising, changing the slogan for the site, making the large gathering of smokers an assembled communittee that can shape future legislation by strength in numbers). If we choose NOT to support the site, we need to keep that last aspect alive and vow to stand up for ourselves REGARDLESS of a large group gathering. The benefits of the large site can be seen if we all stand up individually to create a united voice.
This was the theme of my first post that very few people commented on (nor read, it sounds like)

Does this clear things up?

 

[Wasch_24]

Craig, I think you are putting more value in what Jon Caputo is doing than is necessary. It is clear to me that he is doing what he is for the sole purpose of trying to generate ad revenue.

If this guy cared as much about cigars, the cigar smoking lifestyle, and the rights of cigar smokers his acquistion of these boards would not have come out of left field like they have.

No one has even seen this guy on any cigar board with any level of decent activity, let alone the boards he is buying or tried to buy.

You are giving Jon Caputo too much credit. What he is doing is never going to succeed at the level he hopes it will, with regard to making him money, becuase he failed to see and anticipate exactly what is happening. Why did he lack this foresight? Because he has no clue what it means to participate on these forums and what they stand for because he has never been an active member of any online cigar community.

IMO, for you to think that ignoring what he is doing is somehow going to negatively affect any sort of advances that have been made in cigar and pipe smoking advocacy is giving Jon Caputo and his ideas way more credit than they deserve. His little venture will not work and that is already being evidenced by the mass exodus members and moderators from his boards.

What Eric is saying is we should just watch this and see what happens. There is no need for us, as BOTL.org, to get involved any further than just observing. He is likely saying that because he feels strongly that soon it will all fade away as the boards that were once those purchased are likely bound to slowly resurface outside of PUFF.com, just like what is happening with Club Stogie right now.

Now, if all of those boards voluntarily merged and actually became a functional conglomerate of like minded cigar enthusiasts then your path of logic, that of leveraging the potential power of such a thing, would be the sure fire best bet. With the way it will all go down though, and we are seeing evideince of this already, there is little to no hope that PUFF will become what you think it might. Internet cigar boards just don't, never have and never will, operate that way.

 

[CWS]

These have been well thought out posts and responses to posts. Activisim is always important. Banding togather for change or to insure change does not come about is good. Choosing the forum to handle these tasks is the question to be answered. I dont put political signs in my living room. They do not belong there. It is a place to watch TV, listen to music and often have great conversation. I believe the same thing iapplies to most online forums. This one seems to be about the enjoyment of cigars. There is a group that you can join to push for change http://www.cigarrights.org/. This group has a defined well documented agenda. While I have seen some of the comments posted by the gentlemen buying these sites, as a businessman, I have to wonder what the true reasons could be. I contribute to many charities that evoke change. I contribute to few business that say that change could be a byproduct of their growth. Buy a burger and 2 cents will go to charity. Join my super forum and we may chnage the world. I dont see much difference. Why not create a co-op? Co-ops are multiple businesses that band togather for buying power, a bigger voice and to promote a centralized product or service. Usually non-profit. I would be much more impressed with a group of forums joining such as this. 2 cents as usual.

 

[Angry Bill]

I choose to defend my cigar rights/hobby by joining the CRA. That is a unified front for cigar smokers to protect our rights, fight against the Anti's attempts to curb our passion. It seems that they, CRA, which is composed of Manufacturers, Retailers and Cigar Smokers, are unified in this venture. Is Mr. Caputo trying to do that? Why buy up boards to allegedly unify all of us, when there is a group already tasked with the same mission?

I said it before and I will say it again. It appears that Mr. Caputo is seeking a way to make money off his "enthusiam" for cigars. There is nothing wrong with that. I hope he does. But, we all do not have to buy into his "ideal". If you look at his other "buy up" platform on computer forums, it is a huge advertising platform and not a community system.

Look at the other forums. There is bashing and drama all the time. At times, this can be fun, but it does not create a fellowship/brotherhood atmosphere. I come here to spend time with my online family, learn more about this hooby and share the lifestyle. I will not join Mr. Caputo's site.

BOTL por vida!!

 

[dpricenator]

Jon Caputo for President!!!!

He'll unify the nation so we can all work together to take over the world.

 

[Moro]

I've really enjoyed reading these last opinions and I agree with most (though Jon for president...I'm not sure...). I have left other boards, yet BOTL will remain, because slowly, yet surely, I find meself feeling the brotherhood feeling. What's beneath of some wise and informed blokes always willing to answer yer questions. Even if I've yet to meet ye in real life, I know I can come to ye when in need and I'd get honest concern from the mates here. I might not be expressing meself as it appears in me head, but I basically want to thank ye all for making this site what it is.

 

[Eric]

How is focusing our attention to our own community isolationism? I understand the significance of every cigar smoker being unified against losing their rights. However, that does not mean we should embrace every unique cigar community being bought for cash and thrown into one collective place. In my communication with Jon, the basis of the issues you bring up were never discussed or presented. While I can not assume that he doesn't have the intentions of doing so, neither can I assume that is what his motive is. There are better options if that is his objective. Add to that, an unproven track record of participating in cigar rights or cigar communities... and a record of building and buying websites, networking them and selling.

My point is that, discussion of what is being proposed and what we all assume are not relevant to the business decisions of buyer and sellers in relation to what our community does. We can not embrace or avoid something that does not yet exist.