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Relative Humidity

JNT

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I've set up a large igloodor, and curious if the RH in a large humidor rises to the top or stays at the bottom. Basically, if my humidification device is on the middle shelf, will the top have a higher RH then the bottom, or visa-versa... or does it matter?
 

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I've set up a large igloodor, and curious if the RH in a large humidor rises to the top or stays at the bottom. Basically, if my humidification device is on the middle shelf, will the top have a higher RH then the bottom, or visa-versa... or does it matter?
You are unlikely to notice a huge difference. It depends on how large, "large, is, but still. The technical answer to your question is that humid air is lighter than dry air and will rise (I know, it sounds contradictory, but is true). All of that being said, my suggestion to you would be to split up your humidification (beads I hope) throughout the igloodor to help keep things consistent throughout.

Hope that helps.
 

Jwrussell

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That works as well, but there are two issues. First, I don't think the Oust fans are even available anymore? Two, keeping track of those suckers and replacing batteries is a PITA.
 

JNT

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Right now I have a single 4oz jar of a product called ci-gel (has these little squishy beads in it). supposed to maintain 70% RH, but the hygrometer seems to always show about 66-68% which im told is fine.
 

Jwrussell

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Right now I have a single 4oz jar of a product called ci-gel (has these little squishy beads in it). supposed to maintain 70% RH, but the hygrometer seems to always show about 66-68% which im told is fine.
That is definitely fine. YOu will find that most here prefer a slightly lower humidity than 70%. That being said, and I'm not knocking the gel, I would look into beads (Heartfelt is who I use, though I understand there are some others out there now). Easier to deal with in my opinion and much easier to split up and spread around the humidor.
 

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That is definitely fine. YOu will find that most here prefer a slightly lower humidity than 70%. That being said, and I'm not knocking the gel, I would look into beads (Heartfelt is who I use, though I understand there are some others out there now). Easier to deal with in my opinion and much easier to split up and spread around the humidor.
I'll look into that next, when its time to replace the jar.
 

JNT

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Just bought the Heartfelt beads. Hopefully they ship to Canada quickly.

Been using the Ci-gel 1oz jar in my small humidor for about 2-3 weeks, and the past few cigars i smoked (2 hoyos, 1 monte, and 1 Frank Correnti) all had this weird chemical aftertaste, like varnish.

Been using this humidor for several months without issue, and all of a sudden this is happening.

I know there have been other who complained about this product or similar, and having the same issue.
 
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You are unlikely to notice a huge difference. It depends on how large, "large, is, but still. The technical answer to your question is that humid air is lighter than dry air and will rise (I know, it sounds contradictory, but is true). All of that being said, my suggestion to you would be to split up your humidification (beads I hope) throughout the igloodor to help keep things consistent throughout.

Hope that helps.

It sounds contradictory, because you have slightly missed the mark. Air with water in it is NOT lighter. Water has mass and adds to the air's mass. The true difference comes in when temperature is considered. Air when heated expands, and occupies a larger volume. As such the density (mass divided by vol.) of the air changes. Less dense things "float". So warm air will be found at the top of the container. Warm air contains more water. So the air at the top of the container will have more water in it. That being said, all of the suggestions are first rate and correct.

Sorry, off the soap box.
 
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Jwrussell

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Hmmm. Thanks for the clarification. Though I would argue that we are both correct. Water vapor weighs less than "air".

Equal volumes of different gases at the same pressure and temp will contain the same number of molecules. Hence water vapour molecules must displace air molecules in humid air. Water vapour has a molecular weight of 18 while air is approx 29 so the weight for a given volume ( ie density) is less.
 
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Hmmm. Thanks for the clarification. Though I would argue that we are both correct. Water vapor weighs less than "air".
Equal volumes of different gases at the same pressure and temp will contain the same number of molecules. Hence water vapor molecules must displace air molecules in humid air. Water vapor has a molecular weight of 18 while air is approx 29 so the weight for a given volume ( ie density) is less.
Where does your quote come from? While I will agree that the mass of a water molecule is less than the mass of the molecules of the components of air (nitrogen 78%- 28, and oxygen 21% -32) The quote has serious problems. First sentence is correct. Second is completely FALSE. Search Dalton's Law of Partial pressures. Dalton showed that the pressure of a gas is independent of the amount of other gases present. Because air is mostly empty space, each gas acts individually as if it alone existed. So bottom line the air (mixture of gasses) and the water vapor both occupy the same space regardless of the other. No DISPLACEMENT takes place.

http://www.atmos.umd.edu/~stevenb/vapor/
 

Jwrussell

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That quote came from a crapy "answer" site. Here's an article from USA Today. I'm not smart enough to try to prove this one way or the other, but the article does appear to be saying the same thing as my quote above:

Humidity and air density

Most people who haven't studied physics or chemistry find it hard to believe that humid air is lighter, or less dense, than dry air. How can the air become lighter if we add water vapor to it?

Scientists have known this for a long time. The first was Isaac Newton, who stated that humid air is less dense than dry air in 1717 in his book, Optics. But, other scientists didn't generally understand this until later in that century.

To see why humid air is less dense than dry air, we need to turn to one of the laws of nature the Italian physicist Amadeo Avogadro discovered in the early 1800s. In simple terms, he found that a fixed volume of gas, say one cubic meter, at the same temperature and pressure, would always have the same number of molecules no matter what gas is in the container. Most beginning chemistry books explain how this works.

Imagine a cubic foot of perfectly dry air. It contains about 78% nitrogen molecules, which each have a molecular weight of 28 (2 atoms with atomic weight 14) . Another 21% of the air is oxygen, with each molecule having a molecular weight of 32 (2 stoms with atomic weight 16). The final one percent is a mixture of other gases, which we won't worry about.

Molecules are free to move in and out of our cubic foot of air. What Avogadro discovered leads us to conclude that if we added water vapor molecules to our cubic foot of air, some of the nitrogen and oxygen molecules would leave — remember, the total number of molecules in our cubic foot of air stays the same.

The water molecules, which replace nitrogen or oxygen, have a molecular weight of 18. (One oxygen atom with atomic weight of 16, and two hudrogen atoms each with atomic weight of 1). This is lighter than both nitrogen and oxygen. In other words, replacing nitrogen and oxygen with water vapor decreases the weight of the air in the cubic foot; that is, it's density decreases.

Wait a minute, you might say, "I know water's heavier than air." True, liquid water is heavier, or more dense, than air. But, the water that makes the air humid isn't liquid. It's water vapor, which is a gas that is lighter than nitrogen or oxygen. (Related: Understanding water in the atmosphere).

Compared to the differences made by temperature and air pressure, humidity has a small effect on the air's density. But, humid air is lighter than dry air at the same temperature and pressure.
Link

The above seems to contradict what you are saying, and I'm no scientist so I'm not about to argue which is correct?
 

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here is some more info to really screw with your mind. while humidity does rise, also take this into consideration. Lets say you have a 6 ft tall display cabinet. Put a thermometer in the bottom of the cabinet, and another in the top. In that 6 ft spread, you can see a 2 or 3 degree temp difference. Hot air rises, so top of cabinet will be warmer. warmer temp lowers humidity reading. This is why it is so hard to acheive perfection. Just get your humidity close to what you want, and dont sweat the last few %
 
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Jwrussell said:
That quote came from a crappy "answer" site. Here's an article from USA Today. I'm not smart enough to try to prove this one way or the other, but the article does appear to be saying the same thing as my quote above
Molecules are free to move in and out of our cubic foot of air. What Avogadro discovered leads us to conclude that if we added water vapor molecules to our cubic foot of air, some of the nitrogen and oxygen molecules would leave — remember, the total number of molecules in our cubic foot of air stays the same.
Jwrussell said:
The above seems to contradict what you are saying, and I'm no scientist so I'm not about to argue which is correct?
Jason,

Were not arguing, just a philosophical discussion. Two "semi" intelligent guys should be able to come to a conclusion. I'm not sure that I would consider USA Today to be a definitive source. I think that you and I are trying to say the same thing. My problem is when the article keeps using the word lighter, instead of less dense. I still have a problem with the displacement question also. Let me illustrate with a cigar example. Do you have one of the Herfidor travel boxes. They are air tight, correct. Based of the USA description above, the boxes shouldn't work to keep cigars properly humidified. If its air-tight, no molecules of O or N can leave the box, so no water could enter the air from the humidification device. Any we know that they do work. Only conclusion is that USA today has to be wrong. Their statement about Avogadro's law is correct when applied to ONE substance. Not for a mixture of gases.
 
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Jwrussell

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I'll look into this more later, I do love me some good "discussion"! :wink:

As to your analogy, off the top of my head I want to say yes, BUT. The "but" being that the travel'sor does not insulate the inside environment from temp changes. Nor are we talking about an environment that is strictly gaseous which makes me wonder about other factors. The laws we are talking about all assume "all other factors being the same". Cigars themselves are hygroscopic, so the will both pull and release moisture as well. If they pull moisture from the atmosphere inside the travel'dor, it leaves avoid to be filled by the humidification device, no? If the atmosphere holds more moisture than the humidification device likes, it pulls said moisture from the atmosphere which in turn allows the cigars to release some of their moisture into the atmosphere to compensate.

Deep thoughts. :)
 
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Ok, just to give you something to ponder with your next cigar. :thumbsup: Assume that the cigars are slightly under-humidified and the box starts with completely dry air, and some properly hydrated beads. We know that the beads will release moisture to the air which in turn is absorbed by the sticks. With this scenario, the USA Today quote predicts total failure. As no water would be able to go into the air, and not then be available for the sticks.
 
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