DC Ban on handguns in front of US Supreme Court

[vorra65]

:assaultri :assaultri :assaultri

:gangfire: :gangfire: :gangfire: :gangfire:

:riflefire :riflefire :riflefire :riflefire
:bangbang: :bangbang: :bangbang: :bangbang:

:rifleaim: :rifleaim: :rifleaim: :rifleaim:

:tazerblas :tazerblas :tazerblas :tazerblas

:usaflag: :usaflag: :usaflag: :usaflag:

 

[smokem94]

Pro gun people like to make that claim, but states that have enacted concealed carry laws have seen no drop in crime. Gun nuts always cite a book (written by another gun nut) that backs up the claim, but impartial studies have shown otherwise.

The right to own and carry a gun should not be prohibited, but it should be very tightly regulated.

You should have your facts straight before spewing. I think everyone knows my position.....
i'll leave it at that........"gun nuts" that comment spews of ignorance!

 

[Jwrussell]

This information is dated, but still interesting:

* Right-to-carry laws require law enforcement agencies to issue handgun permits to all qualified applicants. Qualifications include criteria such as age, a clean criminal record, and completing a firearm safety course. (13)

* In 1986, nine states had right-to-carry laws. (14)


* As of 1998, 31 states have right-to-carry laws, and about half the U.S. population lives in these states. (3)




* Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. At the time the law was passed, critics predicted increases in violence. The founder of the National Organization of Women, Betty Friedan stated:



"lethal violence, even in self defense, only engenders more violence." (13)




* When the law went into effect, the Dade County Police began a program to record all arrest and non arrest incidents involving concealed carry licensees. Between September of 1987 and August of 1992, Dade County recorded 4 crimes committed by licensees with firearms. None of these crimes resulted in an injury. The record keeping program was abandoned in 1992 because there were not enough incidents to justify tracking them. (13)(15)

* Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. Between 1987 and 1996, these changes occurred:




Florida
United States

homicide rate
-36%
-0.4%

firearm homicide rate
-37%
+15%

handgun homicide rate
-41%
+24%


(3)


* 221,443 concealed carry licenses were issued in Florida between October of 1987 and April of 1994. During that time, Florida recorded 18 crimes committed by licensees with firearms. (15)

* As of 1998, nationwide, there has been 1 recorded incident in which a permit holder shot someone following a traffic accident. The permit holder was not charged, as the grand jury ruled the shooting was in self defense. (7)

* As of 1998, no permit holder has ever shot a police officer. There have been several cases in which a permit holder has protected an officer's life. (7)

Link

 

[Wasch_24]

Damn facts!


:rofl:

 

[Jwrussell]

States with right-to-carry laws have lower overall violent crime rates, compared to states without right-to-carry laws. In states whose laws respect the citizen's right-to-carry guns for self defense the total violent crime is 13% lower, homicide is 3% lower, robbery is 26% lower and aggravated assault is 7% lower. (Data: Crime in the United States 1996, FBI Uniform Crime Reports)

Link

Clint, you might want to back up your information just a bit more. I assume you are talking about John Lott's paper when you refer to a "book written by another gun nut". Would you care to offer any actual information that contradicts his research?

but states that have enacted concealed carry laws have seen no drop in crime.

Do you have anything to back up this statement?

 

[TBone]

I conceal carry to protect my family. Cops cant be everywhere, and they will be the first to admit this. I dont understand why law abidding citizens have to take flack on this issue.

 

[Asher]

I think its really annoying that people want to make this a conservative vs liberal thing.

I agree. As someone who generally supports both the ACLU and the NRA, I'm alienated by both sides of the political spectrum.

 

[Clinton]

Link

Clint, you might want to back up your information just a bit more. I assume you are talking about John Lott's paper when you refer to a "book written by another gun nut". Would you care to offer any actual information that contradicts his research?


Do you have anything to back up this statement?

Both your links are to sites that are anything but impartial. Do you really believe that there was a 30%+ drop in murders in Florida?

Numbers from the Florida Dept. of Law Enforcement indicate that murders in that state did not decline by 30%+. In fact 1988 (two years after CCW was enacted) was the absolute peak of firearm murders in a 35 year period at 888 killed.

Here is the 1996 FBI Uniform Crime Report. It's a large document and I didn't read it all, but a cursory search found nothing similar to the quote in your second link.

Maybe you can find an unbiased source that shows a direct causal relationship between CCW and a drop in crime. I haven't found one yet.

 

[smokem94]

Please lock this thread as it is now a debate......and before I say something I will regret.

 

[Jwrussell]

Actually, can we just get it, or the portions of it that are a debate, moved over? I would prefer to continue this conversation.

 

[dpricenator]

As long as a debate stays between gentlemen, there should be nothing to regret. Oposing sides of any argument here shopuld be able to shake hands and have a smoke.

Personaly, I would rather see an scociety of trained, responsible folks carrying guns. opposed to guns only in the hands of criminals. Because....When you outlaw guns... only outlaws will have them.

 

[Fox]

Please lock this thread as it is now a debate......and before I say something I will regret.

Damn, and I never even got my turn. . .:rolling:

But to the original post, in reading some of the transcript I find the Justices questions most illuminating, especially their treatment of Miller. Anthony Kennedy was very antagonistic of Miller, the only 20th century case to address the 2nd to any degree. And, for those who have read the case, any assumption that Miller construed a "collective right" on the 2nd Amendment is an egregious misinterpretation of the case, which the media has been doing for decades. Reminds me of Speer or Goebbels who once said something along the lines of: "We discovered that if we lied to the people long enough and often enough, they would believe it was the truth." My sense is that the court will rule definitively for the individual right and that the D.C. ban is unreasonable, which is still a very narrow construction. That ruling alone will severely restrict future gun controls.

 

[Jwrussell]

If it's suitable, and a mod doesn't get to this first, I'll start another thread in the debate section to continue my discussion with Clint...if Clint will be so kind as to follow me over there? Just let me get my thoughts and notes together on a response.

And Dave, what you say is true, but Mike is correct, this is not the debate forum and we do indeed have one. I'd prefer we keep the true debates over there so that those that don't want to be involved in something that might get heated, though still respectful, don't have to be.

 

[vorra65]

As long as a debate stays between gentlemen, there should be nothing to regret. Oposing sides of any argument here shopuld be able to shake hands and have a smoke.

Personaly, I would rather see an scociety of trained, responsible folks carrying guns. opposed to guns only in the hands of criminals. Because....When you outlaw guns... only outlaws will have them.

Careful Dave, your'e gonna get labeled a "gun gnut" :rofl:

Lock and load,

Maybe box cutters and framing hammers will be next. :grinFU:

Picture if you will, a banger holding a sweet ass fiberglass Vaughan framing hammer sidwayz-"Beotch gimme the cheese, fo I put a 10 penny in yo azzzzz.":grin:

 

[sucol]

There were 72 Amicus briefs filed ... I am not sure any case ever generated this kind of interest if that number is used as the gauge.

 

[Jwrussell]

OK, if you are interested, the debate portion of this thread has been moved over to the debate forum.

 

[tazbigdog]

I have a feeling that the justices will overturn the DC law. It will be interesting to see.