Heartfelt beads suddenly not holding 65%

[MichiganM]

And to add you're talking about absolute moisture content. Warmer air and cooler air have different densities and NATURALLY find it easier/harder to hold moistuer. By adding in humidification devices you're giving nature a hand. You're extremely confused my friend.

 

[RiverRat]

I just found this from Prflani over at CW...

Temperature can play a big role. If the temperature rises a few degrees, the RH will go down until the humidity control device can compensate. Conversely, if the temperature falls a few degrees, the RH will temporarily rise.

http://forums.cigarweekly.com/viewtopic.php?t=100341&highlight=

MichiganM, yes, the RH will read 83%@65º, just as the chart indicates...

 

[RiverRat]

[quote="prflani"[/quote]The RH rises when the temperature drops because cool air holds less moisture and therefore the Relative Humidity (which is expressed as the percent of saturation) is higher for the same amount of water vapor per volume of air...

http://forums.cigarweekly.com/viewtopic.php?t=92398&highlight=

 

[RiverRat]

prflani wrote:
Has the temperature dropped? RH is highly dependent on temperature - if it cools a few degrees the RH will shoot up until your humidification control device can absorb the excess...This is one of the beautiful things about Climmax media - it absorbs and controls at the proper RH regardless of temperature...


http://forums.cigarweekly.com/viewtopic.php?t=91850&highlight=

 

[jcgoldner]

I'm going to do a little more research on the web on this. There is definetly conflicting info out there on the subject and I don't want to contribute more to it.

The basics as I know them are that warm air will hold more moisture than colder air. If the moisture content stayed the same as the temperature drops the RH would go up because the air would be more saturated at the lower temperature. Someone will come up with the exact way this interacts with the RH gauges we use. I'm off in search of this.

 

[RiverRat]

The statement that relative humidity can never be above 100%, while a fairly good guide, is not absolutely accurate, without a more sophisticated definition of humidity than the one given here. An arguable exception is the Wilson cloud chamber which uses, in nuclear physics experiments, an extremely brief state of "supersaturation" to accomplish its function.
For a given dewpoint and its corresponding absolute humidity, the relative humidity will change inversely with the temperature. This is because the partial pressure of water increases with temperature – the principle behind everything from hair dryers to dehumidifiers.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_humidity


Methinks I'm gonna stick with the experts on this one. Saka is a good writer, and he knows his cigars, but i'm not sure he has all the info on this Relative Humidity thing.


YMMV

<RiverRat the skeptical>

 

[jcgoldner]

Ok found this pretty quick from:http://www.whatsknottolove.com/cigarsavvy/subcat.php/14

1. The Real Story with Relative Humidity

There's something about shyness that has never appealed to me. One of the reasons why my Denver, Colorado flagship cigar shop has one of the best smoking rooms in the state is so my customers can challenge me. Challenging each other is why we have a good time, and how we learn new things about Cigars. Cigar smokers in the blog community are no different. Recently, I discovered that I've been buying into a pervasive myth regarding cigar humidors: that a decrease in temperature should be followed by an increase in humidity, and vice versa. This is a common, but totally false belief.

To help set the records straight, we're going to observe a fine treatise on the subject from The Cigar Smoker's FAQ. The section on The Variable Humidity Myth articulates how there are a number of authorities claiming that relative humidity should move in an inverse direction from temperature: i.e. if you're maintaining a 70% RH humidor at 70 degrees, and the temperature falls to 65 degrees, the humidity should be raised to 75% RH to compensate. In fact, the humidity should stay constant regardless of temperature.

This is primarily because the tobacco within a cigar needs just enough moisture to keep it elastic, but not so much as to create expansion. This level is always around 70% independent of temperature. Why? Because we're not talking about how much moisture is physically in the tobacco (to keep the absolute moisture the same if temperature dropped, you would have to raise the humidity). What we are talking about is the sweet spot between tobacco leaves getting too brittle (68% RH or lower) and tobacco leaves beginning to swell (73% or higher). This sweet spot is always around 70% RH.

 

[tedski]

(but it is exceptionally cold this morning)

I guess we are pampered here in the Bay Area ... if a low of 36F is referred to as "exceptionally cold". I remember growing up in IL and NJ and some days we we lucky to see the temps break out of the negative. Now that's cold.

 

[thebigo]

Just to make sure I have this correct...the colder it is, the higher your should keep your rh?

I have the temp and rh on my hygro so this will be great for me. May mean that my hygro isn't incorrect. When I tested it the temp fluctuated and maybe this chart will help me out.

Thanks

 

[MichiganM]

RR, all I know is that the chart you published on here is going to make people believe that if you store your cigars in a wine cooler at 65 degrees then you should have your hygro reading 83 percent. That is 100 percent FALSE. I am waiting on a wine cooler, and I definitely know to stay away from any "RH conversion charts". I want my hygro to be reading 65 regardless of temp. I don't care what anyone at CW says. And thanks JC for posting that info backing Saka up. Although if you're calling me Oprah I don't appreciate that...I'm trying to HELP some BOTL's out by pointing out false info.

 

[MichiganM]

Just to make sure I have this correct...the colder it is, the higher your should keep your rh?


Thanks

That depends on whether you wanna believe RR and some people at CW...or Steve Saka and some formidable publications. I think I'll stick with keeping my stuff at 65 percent whether my cigars are stored at 65 degrees or not. If you wanna look for some beads that will keep your stuff at 83 percent RH bigo, you go for it buddy.

 

[thebigo]

Ok found this pretty quick from:http://www.whatsknottolove.com/cigarsavvy/subcat.php/14

1. The Real Story with Relative Humidity

There's something about shyness that has never appealed to me. One of the reasons why my Denver, Colorado flagship cigar shop has one of the best smoking rooms in the state is so my customers can challenge me. Challenging each other is why we have a good time, and how we learn new things about Cigars. Cigar smokers in the blog community are no different. Recently, I discovered that I've been buying into a pervasive myth regarding cigar humidors: that a decrease in temperature should be followed by an increase in humidity, and vice versa. This is a common, but totally false belief.

To help set the records straight, we're going to observe a fine treatise on the subject from The Cigar Smoker's FAQ. The section on The Variable Humidity Myth articulates how there are a number of authorities claiming that relative humidity should move in an inverse direction from temperature: i.e. if you're maintaining a 70% RH humidor at 70 degrees, and the temperature falls to 65 degrees, the humidity should be raised to 75% RH to compensate. In fact, the humidity should stay constant regardless of temperature.

This is primarily because the tobacco within a cigar needs just enough moisture to keep it elastic, but not so much as to create expansion. This level is always around 70% independent of temperature. Why? Because we're not talking about how much moisture is physically in the tobacco (to keep the absolute moisture the same if temperature dropped, you would have to raise the humidity). What we are talking about is the sweet spot between tobacco leaves getting too brittle (68% RH or lower) and tobacco leaves beginning to swell (73% or higher). This sweet spot is always around 70% RH.

Alright...this is all getting confusing with everything being said. The one thing I am wondering is why, when I put my hygro in the bag with the hudipak to test it, the temperature changed the rh it was reading so drastically. And why the bag says keep it between 65-75 Farenheit.

On top of that...this says that anything below 68% will make the leaves too brittle. Is this just preference?

Simply looking for some answers.

 

[scottsins]

I think cold weather lowers rh, because when it's really cold in my house, the air is dryer. so, the beads have to "overcome more"

I think this, because I had my new caliber III out of the humi when I got it and when our temp dropped 40 degrees outside, the indoor rh was down around 12%. this is a really low rh. of course, I'm assuming the our humis aren't vacu-locked. A custrom cabinet may be really airtight, but most commercial desktops don't have perfect seals.

just my opinion though.

 

[Jwrussell]

Oh man, this topic never goes away.

Relative RH is relative RH. DO NOT LISTEN TO THE FOLKS THAT SAY YOU NEED TO INCREASE RH BASED ON TEMPERATURE!!!!!

The reason, BigO, that they tell you to keep your temps as steady as possible between a certain range is that RH will fluctuate with temp changes. It will stablize after a while, but it WILL fluctuate. It will also vary based on your hygro...some are very sensitive and will change the second the RH starts to change and some will lag behind some (end result being that they won't necessarily fluctuate as much).

That being said, the colder you go (say 55 and below or so) the harder it is for you to maintain an RH of a certain level.

As to the brittle leaves thing, IMO, that's bogus. It's all preference. Smoke 'em how you like them. If that's 70% great, if it's 60% that's great.

 

[MichiganM]

I think cold weather lowers rh, because when it's really cold in my house, the air is dryer. so, the beads have to "overcome more"

I think this, because I had my new caliber III out of the humi when I got it and when our temp dropped 40 degrees outside, the indoor rh was down around 12%. this is a really low rh. of course, I'm assuming the our humis aren't vacu-locked. A custrom cabinet may be really airtight, but most commercial desktops don't have perfect seals.

just my opinion though.

This is true. Colder weather holds less RH because of density. However, the thing with humidors is you're adding in humidification. Totally throws nature out the window.

 

[MichiganM]

Oh man, this topic never goes away.

Relative RH is relative RH. DO NOT LISTEN TO THE FOLKS THAT SAY YOU NEED TO INCREASE RH BASED ON TEMPERATURE!!!!!

The reason, BigO, that they tell you to keep your temps as steady as possible between a certain range is that RH will fluctuate with temp changes. It will stablize after a while, but it WILL fluctuate. It will also vary based on your hygro...some are very sensitive and will change the second the RH starts to change and some will lag behind some (end result being that they won't necessarily fluctuate as much).

That being said, the colder you go (say 55 and below or so) the harder it is for you to maintain an RH of a certain level.

As to the brittle leaves thing, IMO, that's bogus. It's all preference. Smoke 'em how you like them. If that's 70% great, if it's 60% that's great.

Thanks Jason. I can't believe some people are still posting that rediculous "you need this rh to equal 70 at 70" chart. Yes RH will fluctuate, that is true and I never said any different. If RH didn't fluctuate, why have hygros? You need to add more distilled water more often when it's cold outside. Needing to keep your RH at 83 percent at 65 degrees to equal 70-70 is craziness.

 

[Jwrussell]

prflani wrote:
Has the temperature dropped? RH is highly dependent on temperature - if it cools a few degrees the RH will shoot up until your humidification control device can absorb the excess...This is one of the beautiful things about Climmax media - it absorbs and controls at the proper RH regardless of temperature...


http://forums.cigarweekly.com/viewtopic.php?t=91850&highlight=

Temperature can play a big role. If the temperature rises a few degrees, the RH will go down until the humidity control device can compensate. Conversely, if the temperature falls a few degrees, the RH will temporarily rise.

OK folks, read the two above. No one is arguing that different temps hold different amounts of water vapor. But pay attention to the bolded text. The media we all use is set to strive for a certain RH (65% for instance). REGARDLESS of temperature. That means that yes, your hygro will read higher when the temps jump and lower when they fall because the amount of water vapor in the air has not changed yet. that's what your media is for. to either soak up the extra water vapor, or release more.

Think of it this way. You prefer your smokes at 65 degrees/65 %. Let's say you have your smokes stored in some mythic humidor that needs no media, you only have to keep the temp at 65 and it will keep the RH at 65. Then you allow the temps to go up to 70%. All of the sudden, your RH jumps to 83% (I'm just grabbing numbers out of posts and air, it's not meant to be scientific, just to get the idea across). Your cigars strive to equalize themselves to the RH around them. So where's additional 18% RH gonna go? Into your cigars, because there's no media to soak it up.

Both sides of this eternal "discussion" have bits of truth and myth. If watervapor is constant, then yes RH will go by that chart. However, that does not mean that RH SHOULD differ with temps. That's what media is for, to keep that from happening. However, none of the media available (to my knowledge) can act fast enough to keep you from seeing those changes.

If you had the ability to control temps so that they woudlnt' fluctuate by more than a degree, you would be able to see this yourself by stabilizing some at 65 degrees and then moving it to 75 degrees. Given working media and enough time, you would stay at whatever the RH of the media was.

 

[RiverRat]

Just to make sure I have this correct...the colder it is, the higher your should keep your rh?

I have the temp and rh on my hygro so this will be great for me. May mean that my hygro isn't incorrect. When I tested it the temp fluctuated and maybe this chart will help me out.

Thanks

thebigo, please re read the little explanation at the top of the chart once again.

Say you have your humidor reading 70%rh at 70º. Spot on in this case, as it were. Then for some reason your room temperature,(therefore the temp of your humidor) drops to 67º. Your hygro will(may)read 78%. This is normal. Don't change anything.

If the temp in your humi rises to 73º, your hygro will read 65%. This is normal. The humidity in your humi hasn't changed, only the relative humidity (which is dependent on temperature) has changed. When your humidor returns to a constant 70º for several hours, your RH will again read 70%.

That is all this chart is indicating. Over the years, I have seen many people panic and obsess about this difference in RH readings in their humidor, but they don't take into account the fact that the temperature is not 70º. The two are intricately intertwined.

If temp in your humi is 67º, and your hygro reads 78%, all is well. if the temp were 70º, it would read 70%.

I hate to quote prflani again, but the man is a chemist, and as he stated...

This is one of the beautiful things about Climmax media - it absorbs and controls at the proper RH regardless of temperature...

Climmax media and Viper's beads are virtually one and the same.

I use this chart only to verify my humidity when the ambient temperature is not at 70º.

Hope this helps...

The posting of the chart was originally intended for this purpose. It kinda got off course, but that's par for the course. Of course.

<RiverRat>

 

[MichiganM]

If the temp in your humi rises to 73º, your hygro will read 65%. This is normal. The humidity in your humi hasn't changed, only the relative humidity (which is dependent on temperature) has changed. When your humidor returns to a constant 70º for several hours, your RH will again read 70%.

<RiverRat>

You are still way off RR. You say when your humi returns to a constant 70, your RH will read 70 again. Incorrect (if you have media). When your media reacts to ambient RH, your RH will read 70 again. Temp is only valid here for a short time until your media makes up for the difference. Temp has very LITTLE to do with our practice...the only time I consider temp is if it's above 75 or below 50 (beetles and slowing of age). Media takes away these cares man, you don't get it. Temp has nothing to do with our RH because media accounts for that. That chart is very old, it's telling people what they need to have in terms of RH to equal 70 at 70. It's been argued to be false for ages. I thought that the chart was dead. I hope you are starting to understand this. RH and temps are intertwined....but that relationship is broken when you introduce media like we do. Make sense?

 

[MichiganM]

I use this chart only to verify my humidity when the ambient temperature is not at 70º.


<RiverRat>

You don't need that chart. That's why we have hygros and media.