Interesting Take On Cuban Cigars

[AlohaStyle]

Akhil and Dave spend about 2 or 3 minutes bashing Cuban quality and flavor, claiming they're 'unprofessional.' And then Akhil describes one of his Regius cigars as "Cubanesque." WTF? So he's basically saying that his competitor doesn't make high quality cigars, but his own cigar is very similar to the competition's. Okay, Akhil, then you're just as foolish and hypocritical as Dave Garafolo.

I actually agree with what Akhil said. IMO, he wasn't really bashing Cuban cigars, he was simply comparing the factory and quality control standards between Nicaragua and Cuba. Think about it, comparing the likes of brand new huge factories like My Father, Drew Estate etc to old run down buildings in Cuba. Some of the Nicaraguan factories are luxury compared to Cuban standards. Cuba has to make do with what they have, and they've done it for years and years. Consider the El Laguito factory where they produce a lot of Cohiba. From the outside, the "factory" is an old mansion in a residential area... it looks amazing. But once you are inside, it's basically an old building where they are producing the cigars in various rooms of the house. It's not very clean or professional compared to the modern facilities of Nicaragua, the DR etc.

I'll watch more of that video later but just wanted to comment on that portion.

 

[Senor Perfecto]

There's no doubt in my mind -- absolutely zero -- that manufacturing & QA standards in Cuba right now are far -- FAR -- below what they are in Nica and DR. The question begs: what is special about CCs right now? Is it the soil? Is it actually better to grow and cure tobacco in shitty conditions than in good conditions? Is it better to not age tobacco and cigars at all before selling them, and let the consumer handle that himself? Do cigars taste that much better when they are aged *as cigars* rather than aged as tobacco, then rolled?

I think a more pertinent argument would be: what if a producer were making Nicaraguan cigars the way Cuba is currently making them? Would those cigars be close to as good as what the leading Nica companies are doing? I doubt it. I doubt it.

There is something there in Cuba. And it's not magic. Maybe it's soil... but I doubt it's that much different from Dominican soil. Maybe there is something to the "simple" methods employed in Cuba right now.

I don't think anyone can argue that there are not a lot of shitty cigars coming out of Cuba. I wonder if they are coming from the same fields and factories, or if it's purely luck of the draw. I think there is a lot we don't know. Even more that I don't know. But some things are demonstrably true: there are CCs with amazing aging potential coming out of Cuba. There are precious few ready-to-smoke ROTT coming out of Cuba. The opposite seems true of Nica/DR sticks. Maybe it's all in the aging.

 

[StogieNinja]

http://www.botl.org/threads/why-would-a-retailer-do-this.69112/
Here is the old thread with comments from 2 of the 3 dbags. Proof they were dumbasses long before this video

Wait... these are the Tootsie Roll cigar guys? The Victor Sinclair Firecracker guys? How did I miss that?!


...makes total sense now.

 

[Mr. McSquirelly]

IMO, he wasn't really bashing Cuban cigars, he was simply comparing the factory and quality control standards between Nicaragua and Cuba. Think about it, comparing the likes of brand new huge factories like My Father, Drew Estate etc to old run down buildings in Cuba. Some of the Nicaraguan factories are luxury compared to Cuban standards. Cuba has to make do with what they have, and they've done it for years and years. Consider the El Laguito factory where they produce a lot of Cohiba. From the outside, the "factory" is an old mansion in a residential area... it looks amazing. But once you are inside, it's basically an old building where they are producing the cigars in various rooms of the house. It's not very clean or professional compared to the modern facilities of Nicaragua, the DR etc.

I guess that's where me and Akhil/Dave disagree. Akhil/Dave's standards are based on English and American standards. Yes, true, My Father and Drew Estate have brand-new, clean facilities with all the modern amenities and trappings. But I wonder what those factories will look like 120 years from now? Probably not so clean and modern after all. Does the cleanliness of the factory have anything to do with the quality of the product it produces? It sounds like Akhil and Dave believe it does. So perhaps 'bashing' was the wrong word choice. But they are certainly casting a negative shadow over the Cuban production process. Their point seems to be that production standards are low and therefore quality standards suffer because of it. I just spoke with a friend of mine who is an absolute authority on Cuban cigars. He has smoked Habanos for 35 years. He has been through all the old factories. Has lived in Havana for 5 years (he's from Montreal), has toured many crop sites in the Vuelta Abajo, etc. I emailed him the link to Dave's story. Here's his reply:

"This guy has NO IDEA what he's talking about. Trust me. He's an idiot who's trying to make Cuba look bad because why? Didn't I mention BIAS before. He admits that he sells cigars for a living - and they're not Cuban... Duh. He's obviously not going to say, with all the Internet buying going on - and as a cigar salesman, he must know about that - that what? Cuban cigars are great? "Yeah folks, don't buy what I'm selling! My cigars stink compared to these!" I don't trust this guy for a second AND he shot himself in the foot several times over with certain things he said that shows he has no CLUE what the fuck he's talking about when it comes to the Cuban cigar production process."

So my next question, and probably my final word on this whole thing: Why do so many people believe that Dave Garafolo is an idiot? And not just random people with no experience in this field, but Habanophiles who have smoked these cigars for many, many years. Honestly, Dave is the owner of a B&M in New Hampshire. He takes his first and only trip to Cuba for 7 days, and suddenly he's an expert on the Cuban production process and cigar factory standards. It would be one thing if David Savona came out with these broad accusations and had pictures, quotations from industry experts, statements from current and former Habanos S.A. employees, etc., etc., etc....But to have a fat dope with a phony Boston accent tell us all this without any corroboration whatsoever--it's just too much to stomach. For people who want to place any stock in the validity of Dave Garafolo's claims, I feel sorry for you--because you are the victim of unprofessional and sensational journalism. How this man even has a radio show that people listen to!!!! It blows my mind.

 

[UpInSmoke]

This is a great thread. Nice to see actual cigar discussions

 

[AlohaStyle]

I guess that's where me and Akhil/Dave disagree. Akhil/Dave's standards are based on English and American standards. Yes, true, My Father and Drew Estate have brand-new, clean facilities with all the modern amenities and trappings. But I wonder what those factories will look like 120 years from now?

You quoted me for the statements above, but I hope you aren't lumping me into your last comments because I agree with you on most everything you say. But I also make a distinction between Akhil and David. The only thing they have in common IMO is they want to sell their NC cigars. I don't know Akhil other than what I watched in that video, but to me, he comes across as liking cuban cigars and their culture and seems pretty educated. He wanted to get into the cigar production business and surely couldn't do that with cuban tobacco, so he made a NC that he felt resembles the cuban cigar flavor as best he could. His comment about the production facilities are spot on... they/we are talking about the present, not trying to predict 120 years from now.

 

[Mr. McSquirelly]

You quoted me for the statements above, but I hope you aren't lumping me into your last comments because I agree with you on most everything you say.

ABSOLUTELY NOT lumping you in with what Akhil and Dave have said at all. In fact, I find your opinion is quite valid. And you're right. Akhil makes a fine cigar. I like Regius a lot. And yes, Akhil is a very well educated man--or seems to be at least. My only gripe with Akhil and Dave has to do with the disdain and superciliousness developed countries demonstrate towards developing countries in general. Of course, factories in Havana are going to be dirty and run-down. But for me there's a charm in that and I don't think it will affect quality in any way. If there's a dead rat underneath the torcedore's station, how will that affect the taste of my cigar. I also disagree with their contention that a 'cleaner,' more modern cigar factory will produce better quality--perhaps even more sanitary and healthy--product. Not perhaps Akhil so much, but Dave certainly returned with a feeling of disgust for the factory standards in Havana. But one trip to a meat processing facility in the Central Valley of California will turn stomachs as well. Does that mean I won't eat beef from Central Valley meat-packing plants? If you've never seen 1000 cows standing on a 300-foot pile of their own manure, then you can't appreciate what I'm talking about. (I'm speaking directly to Dave here, and not to you, AlohaStyle. ) I just think Dave is saying to his viewers and listeners, "Look, buy Nicaraguan and Dominican cigars from me. Don't go on-line to buy cigars of inferior quality (Habanos) from factories that are unsanitary, because I went there and saw the piss-poor quality control of Habanos S.A. with my own eyes." And again, I am not lumping you in with Dave's opinions at all. I quoted you to show that you had a very good point.

 

[sofc]

Do you guys really think that the same people who buy from 'Two Guys' buy ccs online?

I don't have an answer just curious.

 

[brandoncpm]

Do you guys really think that the same people who buy from 'Two Guys' buy ccs online?

I don't have an answer just curious.

I did before the stuff on botl. Just once or twice and hate passing up on the m80 rerelease this year

 

[sofc]

I did before the stuff on botl. Just once or twice and hate passing up on the m80 rerelease this year

if they're the same as the other ones, hard to pass up. I was just curious if ccs are really cutting into his bottom line. I have an inkling that they do not affect it much but really don't know.

 

[AlohaStyle]

if they're the same as the other ones, hard to pass up. I was just curious if ccs are really cutting into his bottom line. I have an inkling that they do not affect it much but really don't know.

Just in the last couple months I've seen/heard a few bigger name people in the NC industry make disparaging remarks about the quality of Cuban cigars going downhill. Of course people can/do say this all the time, but I have found it odd coming from people like Herklots etc to say this stuff publicly since Obama made his announcement in December. Could be as simple as them answering questions or saying something they've always felt, but it struck me odd and I started to wonder if they are saying this now to try and stop the curious people from venturing over to the CC side. Just seems that there's so much Cuban talk in the mainstream public now so the NC industry people are making more effort to discredit Cuban cigars while they can.

By no means I'm saying that as a blanket statement, but just something I have thought about.

 

[sofc]

makes sense Ryan

 

[Mr. McSquirelly]

Do you guys really think that the same people who buy from 'Two Guys' buy ccs online?

I don't have an answer just curious.

Hmmm? I would say maybe somewhere between 5%-10% range. New Hampshire might seem like the sticks to some, but it's really now become the suburbs of the Boston metropolitan area. So I'm sure Garafolo has a wide client base. Now that the embargo has made big news and relations between U.S. and Cuba are thawing, a lot of these smaller retailers have got to be getting nervous!!! I know we've all had this discussion at one time or another. How will Habanos be sold to U.S. market and what will happen, conversely, to the current demand of Nicaraguan and Dominican cigars?

But if I were the owner of a small B&M, I would be a little nervous at the prospect of a huge influx of the world's most coveted cigars into my market place--especially if I couldn't get a license to sell them. At the latest Habanos Festival press conference, Habanos S.A. declared that it wants a 70 percent market share in the U.S.!!! That means that, for every 10 cigars sold in the U.S., 7 will be made by Habanos S.A. What will that do to a guy like Dave Garafolo, who may or may not be able to buy Habanos S.A. products at wholesale cost? So maybe this is a way to protect himself from the impending abolishment of the Embargo, I don't know? But his ridiculous claims and wild accusations about the Cuban cigar industry kinda reek of desperation a little bit.

My theory is that in order to establish a 70 percent market share, Habanos S.A. will have to squeeze out these little B&M guys (which would be tragic). Habanos S.A. would have to sell regional distribution rights, probably East, North, South, West. And then these distributors would sell through licensed LCDH stores in those regions. In the interest of gaining that large market share, I think Habanos S.A. will also distribute to the largest and most popular B&Ms of each region. That means the little guy gets the squeeze. But again, this is all wild speculation on my part, and I am by no means an expert in anything.

 

[Mr. McSquirelly]

http://www.botl.org/threads/why-would-a-retailer-do-this.69112/
Here is the old thread with comments from 2 of the 3 dbags. Proof they were dumbasses long before this video

And now you have this man going to Cuba for 6-7 days and smoking 10 cigars a day, returning to New Hampshire, and then broadcasting to his customers that Cuban cigar factories are disgusting and unsanitary. That is his only impression of these storied and legendary buildings! That alone proves what an idiot Dave Garafolo truly is. I hope the embargo remains in place. Otherwise, there will be a flood of Dave Garafolos ruining the Havana experience for the truly cultured and experienced traveler. I don't mean to sound snobbish or elitist at all. But I mean, c'mon Dave, where did you think you were going? Frickin' Disney World? Like I've said, I've been to Havana illegally. I spent 10 days there. I walked all over Havana and took drives into the country side. Walking through Old Havana at night felt like being dropped into a Joesph Conrad novel. The streets were only lit by the glow of a few bars and restaurants that were still open. It was magical. Yes, it's a dirty slum by day. But by night it's enchanting. Unfortunately I was not a cigar smoker when I visited. I was there to fish for marlin on Havana Bay. I can't say enough about the Cuban people. Wonderful, humble, kind, curious, generous, honest. A lot of the buildings in Havana are old and dilapidated, the ruins of another time and age. For me it was impressive and interesting, not anything I would ever criticize and ridicule. Dave Garafolo, you can have your clean and spotless modern factory in Nicaragua producing mediocre cigars. I'll stick with my rat-infested dump in Havana, producing the world's finest.

 

[AlohaStyle]

And now you have this man going to Cuba for 6-7 days and smoking 10 cigars a day, returning to New Hampshire, and then broadcasting to his customers that Cuban cigar factories are disgusting and unsanitary. That is his only impression of these storied and legendary buildings! That alone proves what an idiot Dave Garafolo truly is. I hope the embargo remains in place. Otherwise, there will be a flood of Dave Garafolos ruining the Havana experience for the truly cultured and experienced traveler. I don't mean to sound snobbish or elitist at all. But I mean, c'mon Dave, where did you think you were going? Frickin' Disney World? Like I've said, I've been to Havana illegally. I spent 10 days there. I walked all over Havana and took drives into the country side. Walking through Old Havana at night felt like being dropped into a Joesph Conrad novel. The streets were only lit by the glow of a few bars and restaurants that were still open. It was magical. Yes, it's a dirty slum by day. But by night it's enchanting. Unfortunately I was not a cigar smoker when I visited. I was there to fish for marlin on Havana Bay. I can't say enough about the Cuban people. Wonderful, humble, kind, curious, generous, honest. A lot of the buildings in Havana are old and dilapidated, the ruins of another time and age. For me it was impressive and interesting, not anything I would ever criticize and ridicule. Dave Garafolo, you can have your clean and spotless modern factory in Nicaragua producing mediocre cigars. I'll stick with my rat-infested dump in Havana, producing the world's finest.

LOL, agreed. Well except I smoked cigars there, didn't get to fish.

 

[Mikenice81]

Just in the last couple months I've seen/heard a few bigger name people in the NC industry make disparaging remarks about the quality of Cuban cigars going downhill. Of course people can/do say this all the time, but I have found it odd coming from people like Herklots etc to say this stuff publicly since Obama made his announcement in December. Could be as simple as them answering questions or saying something they've always felt, but it struck me odd and I started to wonder if they are saying this now to try and stop the curious people from venturing over to the CC side. Just seems that there's so much Cuban talk in the mainstream public now so the NC industry people are making more effort to discredit Cuban cigars while they can.

By no means I'm saying that as a blanket statement, but just something I have thought about.

It becomes cool to bash Cuban cigars from time to time. In 2001 Cigar Aficionado was lamenting the demise of the Cuban cigar. In 2002 they said the Cuban cigar was making a comeback and in 2012. Now people are coming back out talking about how the Cuban cigar industry is in disarray again. It is a cyclical thing. The Cuban sucks and then it isn't that Cuban cigars suck, other countries are just getting better. Then the Cuban is king again. It goes around and round. I don't know that it is necessarily a profit motivated thing. In the end it may be something as simple as bad crop years lead to a change in perception.

 

[AlohaStyle]

Funny thing is that the actual tobacco is as good as it's been in 18 years IMO. Obviously some years' crops were outstanding along the way like 2008 etc, but for the most part, the last couple years have been great. Construction isn't even close to being as bad as it was during the end of the cigar boom of the 1999-2001 era. I just laugh when people say construction is going downhill because what time frame are people talking?

 

[icehog3]

CA might not have been far off, as there was some truly inconsistent QC in Cuba in 1999 through much of 2001, the percentage of poorly rolled (read: plugged) cigars from those years was the much higher than before and after. And in 2002, the quality of the rolls and the tobacco seemed greatly improved. I'm not discounting the "cyclical" theory, just saying CA might not have been just rolling with the cycles, but might have actually been onto something in that particular case.

Ryan, I agree with you, especially in the last 3-5 years, the Cuban cigars have been excellent. The percentage of "fresh" cigars that are not only smokable, but in many cases excellent, is much greater than it seemed to be prior to the recent crops.

 

[Senor Perfecto]

^thats because they're buying Nicaraguan filler

 

[teamrandr]

Seems to me that Cubans will dominate the in the first 5 years due to novelty. After that I suspect Cuban cigars will still widely be considered the finest. People need to remind themselves that Cuban tobacco has been the benchmark for centuries not just the last few decades.