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Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity

scottsins

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Wasch_24 said:
I am in the second camp.

I don't care how sick she was nor if she knew what she was doing.

I hope she rots in hell.

Oh, and it sure seems to me she knew in the police interviews but I wasn't on the jury, soooo...

she may have known what she did, recalled it, or even felt bad for it. however the relevant state of mind is at the time of the offgense. i do commend you on acknowledghing our lack of full facts of the case. Most of the time in these discussions, people forget what you honestly pointed out. not that it invalidates one's view, but you know what I mean.
 

caudio51

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Without getting into her specifically....frame of mind etc

My thoughts are really just with those poor kids and what they had to go through.
 

scottsins

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Wasch_24 said:
Scott, I mean this with the utmost respect, please don't lecture us on the law and due process on this one.

This lady doesn't deserve shit for what she did...she did admit to all of it.
with the utmost respect, I wasn't trying to lecture on the law. what I was trying to do is defend my chosen, proud profession against a bullshit attack, though understandably made from valid emotions.

You have to assert the rights of the guilty to insure that the rights of the innocent are also protected. it is the, as I've said before, the ugly, nasty, unbearable NECESSITY of our system, along with what separates us from lesser societies.

again though, i don't want in any debate over whether the 6th amendment exists or not (silly discussion).

what I wan't is for people to stop knee-jerking with vile for my profession when it's most often rooted in pure ignorance of what i do ewvery day.

I seriously wouldn't have gotten this way if the 'typical, scumbag, greedy lawyer" card hadn't been played here.
 

caudio51

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Sorry Scott, you're a lawyer, it comes with ESQ because of all the lawyers out there that don't up hold morals/law unfortunately



and you did just lecture on the law :rofl:
 

scottsins

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My thoughts are really just with those poor kids and what they had to go through.
I can't even dedicate thoughts to that, because that actually being a realityt for those kids is something that makes me LITERALLY nauseous. You'll get no debatre from me here on that, since I am a human too.
 

Wasch_24

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Scott,
You need to be proud enough of the job you do to differentiate people commenting on cases you are not involved in from being an attack on you our your profession.

I did not post this as any sort of bash on the system or her lawyers.

I simply hope the rotten POS, sorry excuse for a human being rots in hell when she dies...preferably sooner than later.
 

scottsins

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Sorry Scott, you're a lawyer, it comes with ESQ because of all the lawyers out there that don't up hold morals/law unfortunately
and I would agree with that, jsut like I would with any profession. cases like this are hard to look at while holding to dertain principles. the justice system has been and must be a cold, blind, machine.

My only point was that (law lecture coming) every person accused of a crime has a right to trial by jury. I know some of you disagree, but the answer is to amend the Consitution. Furthermore, the assertion that "she admitted it so she doesn't deserve due process is really scary to me. In this case, she admitted to it because she did it...

however, the number os false confessions given in astounding (even though one is too many). morally, she maybe didn't deserve all the rights and stuff to some of you, and I get that. the problem is that there is no workable solution to this. to curb rights like hers is impossible to do without impacting other, more innocent folks.

There is talk lately of doing away with the insanity defense altogether, which is an interesting discussion, and would take care of alot of these types of results.

oh, her husband should be on trial. WHY IS HE NOT??? they could tag him for at least a 3rd degree felony. that bastard was mentally well and directly contributed to this horrific experience.


Wasch:
I did not post this as any sort of bash on the system or her lawyers.
I know, and I wasn't adressing you.

***I likely know where this discussion is headed, and I will grtacefully bow out of this thead.

good night.
 

caudio51

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Just want to make sure we are not lawyer bashing here Scott. and that you know that.

It was more of a venting thread about the poor kids but I know I do appreciate your legal insight.


Oh, and even if she was insane, I still want to put my cigars out on her
 
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Get used to it. People in general don't like physicians or cops either. We need lawyers as well as we need physicians and cops. The professions are perceived by many as money grubbing, dishonest, corrupt, in the pocket of, etc etc. I think it stems from peoples worst fears combined with a few well known stories or even a personal bad experience. I personally fear being wrongfully accused of a crime and thrown in prison. That's one of my worst fears therefore I could project that fear onto the entire profession (cops and lawyers). People fear sickness and death and many have had bad experiences either with pain or an uncaring physician. Those fears are projected onto me and I understand it. You would be surprised at how many people tell me they hate physicians to my face. I guess I have just had to grow a thick skin and try to be the best at what I do. In any profession, there are good and there are bad. We each have to decide on which side of the fence to play.

With that said, I read about some of the case. I do not know all the facts. I personally do not wish hell on this woman. I will say that I do disagree with the whole insanity plea. Whether a person was capable of knowing right from wrong to me matters less than could this person do the crime again. A person even temporarily psychotic enough to do a crime like this needs to be locked up somewhere for life. The public needs that sort of protection. I understand postpartum psychosis and I still believe at the very least she should be institutionalized for life. The fact that she could get out and possibly snap again (not knowing right from wrong) is not a risk worth taking. One question for you scott...if she were released would you be comfortable with her in your neighborhood? Would you be comfortable seeing her talking to your kids? That's what free people do. This woman should never ever walk the streets again.

scottsins said:
with the utmost respect, I wasn't trying to lecture on the law. what I was trying to do is defend my chosen, proud profession against a bullshit attack, though understandably made from valid emotions.

You have to assert the rights of the guilty to insure that the rights of the innocent are also protected. it is the, as I've said before, the ugly, nasty, unbearable NECESSITY of our system, along with what separates us from lesser societies.

again though, i don't want in any debate over whether the 6th amendment exists or not (silly discussion).

what I wan't is for people to stop knee-jerking with vile for my profession when it's most often rooted in pure ignorance of what i do ewvery day.

I seriously wouldn't have gotten this way if the 'typical, scumbag, greedy lawyer" card hadn't been played here.
 

tripp

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I think anyone that would harm a child, especially one they gave birth to would have to me mentally ill. and what she has done is incomprehensible. I dont think there is anyone that would applaud her for what she has done.

However from the limited reading of the story on this I do believe there is at least a suspiscion that she is psycotic. And I do believe that she does need help.
I dont believe in the not guilty by reason of insanity defense. It should be guilty , but mentaly ill.

In Ohio where I am from, a friend of mine came home on valentine's day and cut his wife's head clean off. They had lost an infant to s.i.d.s. a while before and there was a history of drug and alcohol abuse in his past. He was very paranoid and had experienced psycotic episodes. He went on trial and was found not guilty by reason of insanity. He spent several years in different medical/mental facilities and recieved treatment/ After several years he was deemed recovered.
He has been released and has tried to resume his life. He does still have to see a court appointed therapist and submit to drug testing.

His wife's family fought and did win a battle to have it changed where they do have the guilty but mentally ill decisision. he has tried to hold several jobs buther momther has hounded him at every job he has found. He has moved to another county and tried to move on with his life.

Is what he did wrong? Hell yes. Did he know what he was doing wrong??? Hard to tell if he was faking or just snapped. The same with Yates. There is a fine line between the two.

For Yates I think she should burn in hell for murdering young children. if she is a mentally ill person I would hope as an advanced country we could find a way to treat her and try to help her. Also study her to try and find a way to develope things that can reduce the times this can happen to other people.

Sorry for the rant, I just think the ruthless serial criminals that commit crime after crime and all they see is the revolving door of the jail are more deserving of our wrath than a mentally ill person even thou her crime is more horrific.

And Scott I hope we dont offend you, But Lawyers are easy targets in cases like this. we have to blame someone.:eyepoke: But not you on this one.
That is why you are the Official BOTL Consigliere.
 

tripp

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Shawn brings up a great point about the freedom. raymond is a free man now and has no criminal record. he does not have to disclose that "incident" on a job aplication or anything. he can vote or buy a weapon now that he is released. ( I am not 100% sure about the weapon thing, I dont know about the mental status timeframe on a gun application, one of you gun guys can help me with that)
 

gui_tarzan

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This thread brings a few thoughts to mind. First, I submit that she HAS to be freakin' looney in order to do something like that. Either that or she's pure evil and I don't recall seeing anything like that. Should a lunatic be given the death penalty for a crime like this even if they didn't have a right mind? Who knows. At any rate, she's going to have it easy albeit locked up in a looney bin. I am really torn about the death penalty as of late, probably because of my religious beliefs. But to take the life of your children has to be something I would at least ask for the absolute harshest penalty allowed.

Second, I absolutely love my police department, my doctors, my pharmacist and even the rare, outstanding attorneys that I will hopefully never need to employ.

Third, I understand the need to vent. It's amazing and depressing what people will do at times.

Fourth, and most important... it's refreshing to see the stunned and angry reactions to this case here. I was afraid our country was getting used to vile crimes like this and got apathetic but I see that's not the case. Thank you all for reaffirming my faith in the human being!
 

Jwrussell

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Well, in my mind Rank, it's not up to me to forgive her. That's up to someone with infinite understanding, and I'll leave it up to him.

I was wondering when I'd see you in this thread Scottsins, especially after the post you responded to. :wink: I'm sure it's tough being in the profession you are in. Always with a target on your back.

I just don't know. I have a Psych major and I still was never able to wrap my head around mental illness. On one hand it's incredibly difficult to not imagine this woman WAS and probalby still IS mentally ill based on what she did and how everything went down. On the other hand, it's VERY difficult for me to give a shit. I don't necessarily want to see the woman tortured or rot in hell or whatever, but at the very least, sit her down, make her comfortable, give her a sedative and stick a needle in her vein. And let the guy I mentioned earlier sort it out.
 
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i tried to stay away but the comments here worry me. i really thought we had evolved past the "an eye for an eye" mentality.

if i recall correctly, every single member of the jury agreed she was insane.

i pray that her treatment does not succeed. I can't even imagine if she ever wakes up one morning and realizes what she did.
 
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jordon said:
i tried to stay away but the comments here worry me. i really thought we had evolved past the "an eye for an eye" mentality.

if i recall correctly, every single member of the jury agreed she was insane.

i pray that her treatment does not succeed. I can't even imagine if she ever wakes up one morning and realizes what she did.
What do you mean "evolve past." In much of the US, the death penalty is part of the law, and clearly the US is the most advanced country in the world. I just hope they get her on the other two murders. Hopefully the prosecutor will pick a better jury next time.
 

NYLaw

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I'm working on a couple of cases right now involving child victims, although those charges are not the primary crimes (and not the primary reason that I have the case- it was more because the children happened to be present)... The one bureau that I could never go into permenantly is the Special Victims Bureau here... 90% of their cases involve crimes against children, and the facts of those cases never cease to break my heart- more than any other crime, and I've seen some truly horrific acts.

Regarding the "prosecutor picking a BETTER jury"- I guess all I'll say is that it's harder than it looks. Anybody on this board who's ever served on a jury can tell you: How much information, both fact-based and personality-based, does either attorney garner from you during jury selection? The entire voir dire process is really designed to pick out anybody with glaring biases, either inherent or because of some experience or relationship, against either side.

It'd be nice if every jury liked me, believed me, trusted me completely. But ultimately when they finally get sworn in before opening statements, you never truly know who you've got in that box... Of course I know absolutely nothing about the prosecutor's work on that jury, or that case for that matter!
 
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