Ruger 1911

[mdwest]

how many houses have you cleared with a shotgun? ever try to get into tight places like a closet, or behind the fridge with a shotgun (whether on the offense or the defense?)... they are long, unweildy weapons.. factor in that most people will never seek enough training or commit to enough practice to really be able to use them effectively, that recoil management is an issue for LOTS of users, and that load selection is really what drives a shotguns effectiveness.. not the weapon itself... and the answer is yes.. a handgun is often times MUCH easier to use in an HD situation than a shotgun...

there is a reason SWAT cops and Mil special operations personnel work HARD on transition drills... because in a CQB/house clearing situation, it OFTEN makes much more sense to utilize your pistol than it does your rifle, shotgun, or subgun... its not just because your "primary" might run dry or malfunction..

fight hand to hand with a shotgun vs. a pistol? .. let me close the gap on you, and your shotgun has about as much value as a broom handle..

a .45 is a piss poor man stopper.. just like a 9mm is.. handguns as a general rule do not drop people in their tracks.. ammunition capacity becomes a very real argument when you factor the number of hits vs. miss in the typical gun fight in the US (even at extremely close ranges).. not to mention, its been my experience that most people dont train nearly enough with their self defense firearm to adequately make multiple, rapid hits with a .45 in the first place..

Personally, if I am reaching for a long gun for home defense.. I am going to reach for the M4... not one of my shotguns... my "combat" shotguns are actually the LAST weapons I am going for...

 

[mwlabel]

How do you figure they are harder to use? I will fight you hand to hand with a shotgun over a pistol 7 days a week

.45 offers more energy so why would you not choose it when things like ammunition carry out are not an issue

Lolol.

I'm not even going to bother with that one.

how many houses have you cleared with a shotgun? ever try to get into tight places like a closet, or behind the fridge with a shotgun (whether on the offense or the defense?)... they are long, unweildy weapons.. factor in that most people will never seek enough training or commit to enough practice to really be able to use them effectively, that recoil management is an issue for LOTS of users, and that load selection is really what drives a shotguns effectiveness.. not the weapon itself... and the answer is yes.. a handgun is often times MUCH easier to use in an HD situation than a shotgun...

there is a reason SWAT cops and Mil special operations personnel work HARD on transition drills... because in a CQB/house clearing situation, it OFTEN makes much more sense to utilize your pistol than it does your rifle, shotgun, or subgun... its not just because your "primary" might run dry or malfunction..

fight hand to hand with a shotgun vs. a pistol? .. let me close the gap on you, and your shotgun has about as much value as a broom handle..

a .45 is a piss poor man stopper.. just like a 9mm is.. handguns as a general rule do not drop people in their tracks.. ammunition capacity becomes a very real argument when you factor the number of hits vs. miss in the typical gun fight in the US (even at extremely close ranges).. not to mention, its been my experience that most people dont train nearly enough with their self defense firearm to adequately make multiple, rapid hits with a .45 in the first place..

Personally, if I am reaching for a long gun for home defense.. I am going to reach for the M4... not one of my shotguns... my "combat" shotguns are actually the LAST weapons I am going for...

Nailed it.
Mdwest, were you the one who took some SouthNarc classes?

 

[mdwest]

I spent a little time with Craig WAAAAAAAAAAY back... when he was still a full time cop south of me.. and only teaching on a very limited, part time basis... he's a good dude.. and is solid both behind the podium, and in practical application..

PM sent

 

[turbomunkey]

how many houses have you cleared with a shotgun? ever try to get into tight places like a closet, or behind the fridge with a shotgun (whether on the offense or the defense?)... they are long, unweildy weapons.. factor in that most people will never seek enough training or commit to enough practice to really be able to use them effectively, that recoil management is an issue for LOTS of users, and that load selection is really what drives a shotguns effectiveness.. not the weapon itself... and the answer is yes.. a handgun is often times MUCH easier to use in an HD situation than a shotgun...

there is a reason SWAT cops and Mil special operations personnel work HARD on transition drills... because in a CQB/house clearing situation, it OFTEN makes much more sense to utilize your pistol than it does your rifle, shotgun, or subgun... its not just because your "primary" might run dry or malfunction..

fight hand to hand with a shotgun vs. a pistol? .. let me close the gap on you, and your shotgun has about as much value as a broom handle..

a .45 is a piss poor man stopper.. just like a 9mm is.. handguns as a general rule do not drop people in their tracks.. ammunition capacity becomes a very real argument when you factor the number of hits vs. miss in the typical gun fight in the US (even at extremely close ranges).. not to mention, its been my experience that most people dont train nearly enough with their self defense firearm to adequately make multiple, rapid hits with a .45 in the first place..

Personally, if I am reaching for a long gun for home defense.. I am going to reach for the M4... not one of my shotguns... my "combat" shotguns are actually the LAST weapons I am going for...

Note the bolded, now lets go back to square one which is the fact OP is not a swat/operator and shouldnt be going around clearing his house. Average joe who isnt taking formal training frequently and is looking for an HD gun. Heres a shotgun, heres a flashlight mount, heres some double 00, go bunker down in your room behind furniture and call the police. Disregard if day comes youre going to be shaking with tunnel vision and on top of that youre going to be in darkness potentially with family members to look after trying to make judgement calls. Good luck with your shot placement. Ill take a 9 pellet spread thanks

 

[mdwest]

youre right... he is not...

therefore the .45 you recommend is likely a poor option... as is the 12 ga pump...

unless you are living alone.. there is a good chance you WILL be moving through the house at least for some period of time... are you going to leave the kids to their own devices? what about when youre sitting in the den watching a late night movie and some crack head kicks in the door? is your 12 ga sitting next to your lazyboy recliner in the den? how about when you are sitting at the kitchen table on a tuesday afternoon eating your PB&J and homie opens your front door and walks in thinking you must be at work? What if the attack is taking place somewhere else in the house (crack head has gone straight to your 6 year old daughters room and is trying to rape her?)

do you really believe the hollywood version of armed robbery, burglary, rape, and murder, and think that the only time bad things happen to people is at 2AM while you are asleep in your bedroom late at night?

perhaps you should check out the last 10 years of the FBI UCR, or contact your local PD for some regional stats...

how much penetration do you think 00 buck has when fired out of an 18" bbl "combat" style shotgun? have you shot through sheetrock walls and 2x4 studs to check it out? how many people live in your house? where are they located? what happens when one of those 9 pellets DO NOT enter the bad guy, and instead flys through the rest of the house towards all those kids you left unattended while you bunkered down?

bunker down behind furniture? what furniture? do you know the difference between cover and concealment? (heres a hint... there is VERY LITTLE in the typical US household that offers real cover... a .32 ACP fired out of a 2 1/2" bbl will penetrate most furniture... again, the hollywood version of good guys hiding behind couches and queen sized beds and not getting hit by bullets being fired by the bad guys... is wholly inaccurate..

 

[Schmec]

Making up hypothetical scenarios is dumb. A shotgun is excellent home defense weapon. If the situation ever arises that you need to use it you should not be "clearing" your house. You get your family in one room, call the police and aim at the door. Clearing houses is for police/military. a weekend course will not train you enough, it just gives a sense of false security. I do agree training with a firearm is very important. if you take the responsibility of owning a gun you should train on how to use it, but be realistic when it comes to real life situations.


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[mdwest]

none of those hypotheticals is hypothetical.. every single one of them has happened in the real world..

we are not talking about clearing houses.. we are talking about moving to the most defensible position.. the clearing references are relevant because the tactics/techniques are the same regardless of where you are moving or why..

a shotgun works.. but it is far from the best choice for most people...

training is incredibly important... but we have to accept that most people dont/wont..

realistic situations is exactly what we are talking about....


there several ways to skin a cat... you can defend your house with a golf club too.... but that doesnt make it the best choice (or even a good one most of the time...)... there will be plenty of people that disagree with the above... but that doesnt make them right

 

[CigarGavin]

Training is obviously the most important aspect of defending yourself in any situation; you guys are tearing each other apart lol. It's all preference, no need to hate on each other. If someone wants defend themselves with a spoon cool; if they want to defend themselves with a gun, cool.

 

[mdwest]

lol... sincerely no hatin or tearing going on... (again, I have a terrible time typing and not making something "sound" like there is emotion attached when it is read... I intend on expressing no emotion here at all ).... actually just trying to share realistic information from one of the very few areas of expertise that I can draw upon in life :tiphat:

I agree with you on the spoon comment.... (although I would likely point and laugh if someone really thought that practical (is laughter an emotion? ))....

 

[CigarGavin]

Haha your killing me; whatever fake Dave uses to arm him/herself, spoon or not, must be respected!!

Ok back on track ruger 1911....

 

[turbomunkey]

Ok so back to the topic at hand, mdwest what are you proposing the OP does as per his question?

 

[LigaPrivadaFanboy]

Ok so back to the topic at hand, mdwest what are you proposing the OP does as per his question?

Not to threadjack here...mdwest has solid advice for sure....
Take some time to do more research and don't buy anything just yet. RELAX. Gun shops across the USA are freaking mobbed this week with noobs buying POS ARs just to have one in anticipation of a ban. Odds are you won't be able to get anything you REALLY want due to depleted inventories until January without paying through the nose and waiting 3hrs for the shop to actually call NICS w/o getting a busy signal.

 

[mdwest]

the same thing recommended in post #7 and post #13... veer away from the 1911 as a platform and consider something else...

If I had to choose 1 weapon, and 1 weapon only, for all self defense purposes... for an occasional shooter... I would choose a handgun... of incredibly reliable make/model.. that is well supported (holsters, lights, sights, etc..).. and depending on the shooters dedication to practice/training/experience level.. would more often than not recommend a 9mm..

A 9mm pistol is not the be all to end all in personal defense....

but a G19 for example is portable, concealable, reliable, affordable, and you can teach a monkey to shoot one effectively with a minimal amount of training.. its relatively inexpensive to keep fed (compared to other pistol rounds, shotgun rounds, and rifle rounds).. doesnt over penetrate (by comparrison with other pistol rounds).. but has the capability to reach vitals effectively..

I can put it in the drawer in my bedside table.. I can wear it on my hip.. I can take it with me downstairs.. I can take it with me in the car.. I can take it to the mall... etc..etc..

while other pistols (1911 for example) have several of those same attributes.. the 1911 is expensive to feed.. is difficult for many shooters to master without considerable practice.. many makes of the 1911 are not reliable.. it has limited capacity... etc...

not saying I dislike 1911's... as stated earlier.. I actually love them.. Ive owned several.. I carried one professionally for a while.. it will absolutely get the job done... and if youre willing to spend the money to get a good one.. and the money and time to become proficient with it... by all means.. give it consideration.. there is a reason that the 1911 (variations of it) is what most IPSC grandmasters shoot...

if you are going to own multiple weapons.. and the only thing you are concerned about is personal defense.. I would then next consider a rifle (assuming it is withing your budget).. a 5.56 rifle offers far more terminal performance than a pistol.. is faster and easier to reload than a shotgun.. is more accurate than either a shotgun or pistol.. is easier to manuever with than the shotgun.. is lighter and easier to fight with than a shotgun.. 55gr rounds actually are safer to shoot inside a building/structure than 00 buck or slugs... 5.56 penetrates body armor (yes.. some criminals wear body armor these days...) where a shotgun does not... you have a greater choice of accessory options for a 5.56 rifle than most shotguns.... and at the end of it all, if we continue to keep in mind that most people that own firearms are not going to seek an adequate amount of training , a 5.56 rifle is FAR easier to become proficient with than a shotgun... especially for smaller framed shooters...

all that said... if your budget will only allow you a basic Rem 870P or a mossy 590... by all means.. give one a whirl... there is nothing wrong with one...

and 20 years ago, I would have argued that it was probably the best long gun option for home defense for the private citizen..

times have changed however... ammo has changed.. weapons systems have changed.. tactics have changed.. the common threats have changed.. etc..etc..

there is a reason you dont see MP5's on SWAT teams anymore... the day of pistol caliber long guns being envogue is over... there is a reason you dont see shotguns used by hardly anyone in the tactical community for much other than breaching these days... there is a reason that more and more police departments pull shotguns out of the cars every year and are adopting patrol rifle programs... (easier and cheaper to train their officers with.. more versitile.. more range... more capable.. and less liability...)...

 

[mdwest]

Ok so back to the topic at hand, mdwest what are you proposing the OP does as per his question?

Not to threadjack here...mdwest has solid advice for sure....
Take some time to do more research and don't buy anything just yet. RELAX. Gun shops across the USA are freaking mobbed this week with noobs buying POS ARs just to have one in anticipation of a ban. Odds are you won't be able to get anything you REALLY want due to depleted inventories until January without paying through the nose and waiting 3hrs for the shop to actually call NICS w/o getting a busy signal.

this is 100% spot on advice....

Im betting inventories in most places suck right now... and prices have gone up to stupid levels in the past week (havent checked them... but I'd be willing to bet my next paycheck on that)....

 

[turbomunkey]

Ill drink to that. FWIW ive got all my bases covered gun wise so im fairly relaxed about everything atm. Wally world had quite a few boxes of AE 55 grain varmint @ 10.xx a box much to my surprise and all the pistol ammunition was still full up so I guess people havent gone stage 5 panic yet if theyre still holding off on the higher priced rounds.

I was actually looking to purchase my first gun around the time of the 08' election so im somewhat accustomed to the events at hand.


Ty for the information btw

 

[mdwest]

thats a very good deal on the American Eagle ammo... Im actually a little low right now (probably have less than 1000 rounds in the house) and need to stock back up... I might head over there after the holidays (no way in hell Im going to brave the people of Wally World before the 26th) and see about picking up a few more boxes...

next time Im in Chi-town (I travel there at least once or twice a year), Ill look you up and grab that beer with you that you reference!

 

[turbomunkey]

I can dig that. I am well acquainted with cigargavin so maybe a little meet up is in order. Thread officially highjacked. I hope doug didnt getting trampled trying to pick up that 1911