StogieNinja
Derek | BoM June 2014
I gotta agree.
Brands That Fallen and Risen
- Thread starter ssaka
- Start date
This is fantastic, I love the thread and the insight. I have been smoking about a decade, but only got serious about what I was smoking in the last year after joining the brotherhood here and having several years that I did not smoke often. I remember back when I began smoking the Rocky Patel Olde Worlde Reserve was "it" for me and I also really enjoyed the Edge along with 5 Vegas series A. When I started getting back into cigars heavy last year I bought some of all of these sticks I used to enjoy and they all were way less than impressive. Maybe it was a decline in quality or maybe an improvement in my palate since the majority of brothers here share my opinion on them.
I was just going to mention RP as a declined brand. I'm definitely no expert, but when I first started getting into cigars 8 or 9 years ago, I remember the 1990 and 1992 series being really well regarded, and he didn't have that many lines out. Now, it seems like he's one step away from Gurkha in the number of lines out, in addition to the issues with dyed cigars, and the licensing of his name to CI with crap cigars. I think he's still put out a few quality sticks since then, as I do enjoy the original Edge corojo, and the Decade line. I think if RP focused on a few core brands, instead of flooding the market like they do, he would be better off.
Going on the upswing for ME
1. Camacho
2. Perdomo
3. Espinosa
Staying Status quo
1. Drew Estate (nervous with this Swisher buyout) and agree the Liga line is not worth $13-$15 a stick.
2. Toraño
3. CAO..I rarely buy anything but the Flathead line from them anymore.
Heading into the toilet.
1. Gurkha...with the lone exception of the Ghost all their cigars taste the same to me..wretched. and lots of burn issues.
2. Punch...never see anyone clamoring to buy them.
3. RyJ...more burn issues than any cigars I've smoked.
1. Camacho
2. Perdomo
3. Espinosa
Staying Status quo
1. Drew Estate (nervous with this Swisher buyout) and agree the Liga line is not worth $13-$15 a stick.
2. Toraño
3. CAO..I rarely buy anything but the Flathead line from them anymore.
Heading into the toilet.
1. Gurkha...with the lone exception of the Ghost all their cigars taste the same to me..wretched. and lots of burn issues.
2. Punch...never see anyone clamoring to buy them.
3. RyJ...more burn issues than any cigars I've smoked.
StogieNinja
Derek | BoM June 2014
I beg to differ.
...you can't be heading somewhere if you've already reached the destination!
I did like the Ghost, as well as the Cellar Reserve. The Crest was decent too, when I smoked it 5 or so years ago, and the Triple Ligero was actually really tasty once upon a time.
My b&m is having a Gurkha event on Friday...I am keeping an open mind and might try something but darn sure won't be buying boxes. I notice they are making a cigar that looks an awful lot like the Drew Estate Flying Pig.
StogieNinja
Derek | BoM June 2014
That's the Cellar Reserve. I haven't had one since the initial release, but they were decent then. Heard the maduro release was awful though...
Speaking of CAO,
I recently talked to my aunt's ex-husband. He was a die hard CAO smoker. It was one of only two or three brands he smoked. He told me that he stopped smoking them around Christmas when his last box ran out. He said the quality just wasn't the same as it use to be. Even with three or four months of humidor time the sticks just weren't the same any more.
Even though I haven't been at this long I find that disheartening. I've read the history of CAO and I hate to see it fizzle out. It seems pretty sad that the father's dream has been so completely lost.
I recently talked to my aunt's ex-husband. He was a die hard CAO smoker. It was one of only two or three brands he smoked. He told me that he stopped smoking them around Christmas when his last box ran out. He said the quality just wasn't the same as it use to be. Even with three or four months of humidor time the sticks just weren't the same any more.
Even though I haven't been at this long I find that disheartening. I've read the history of CAO and I hate to see it fizzle out. It seems pretty sad that the father's dream has been so completely lost.
To me, CC aren't what they used to be 10-20 years ago. They still taste good today, but back then, they were an amazing smoke. the ones today, to me, don't look the same. Back then the wrappers hardly ever had veins in them and were all identical and shape and size. Now, they are not exactly the beauties they once were. But I still smoke them.
Don't be too disheartened, they cashed the big check. I don't fault them for it in anyway whatsoever, god bless them, however once you sell it is ultimately someone else's brand, business, factory, etc. to do with as they wish. That being said CAO could be a case study for how not to acquire and subsequently operate what was formerly a family run business in a personal relationship-based industry. It should also be a telltale warning to other corporate suitors in the future that regardless of the checkbook you can not purchase "cool" or "hip".
Failures or downsides trending cigars,
Gurkhas were hot (although I never understood the fanboy mentality of them) and now aren't. I think took much money was spent on the packaging instead of the blends and developing a cigar line that had staying power.
I'll be nice about RP, as I'm not a fan of his cigars. But, he is way on the downside of his ride, RP does know about marketing, but his full lines lack the complexity that cigar smokers want now,
Torano. Loved their lines until about a year before they sold out.
Cao, the marketing company that made cigars, I was never a fan, but they did make some cigars that people loved.
I could keep going about the failures and downswings, but I won't. You get the picture.
Cigar smokers today are aware of their pallates, know what strengths they like, but still engage in getting into buying the "hottest cigars" just because they are hard to obtain. Some cigars are overpriced, when you get to the fact that it's a bunch of leaves that will turn into ash. Yes, I'm oversimplifying it, but it's true. Some manufacturers think that If they make limited edition cigars all the time, they will keep their brands going, but that is not the case, one of those company's, Viaje, Constantly releases limited cigars to keep a buzz. Although I'm not a fan of their cigars, folks go nuts over them and say that the cigars are well made with great complex flavors.
manufactures like Padron, Fuente, AJ Fernandez, Litto, Pete, DE and others keep their staying power by making great quality cigars with the blends that enthusiasts enjoy. There are not changes in their essential lines or tweaks on these blends, Unfortunately, marketing is a part of the industry and is what keeps cigar companies in the "news" if you will. Often times, marketing is what causes the downswing of a company though, market th cigar wrong and no one wants it, creating too many limited edition cigars is also a brand killer imho,
Guys like Jon Huber and Sam Leccia, both with long cigar backgrounds and both ventured out on their own, keep the mainstay manufacturers on their toes by creating cigars that people want to smoke, which is why I say we are in the 3rd cigar boom. We also have an increase in small batch blend companies that are making cigars that people love to smoke,
Add now into the equation that the Cuban embargo appears to be ending and free trade with Cuban tobacco companies will be coming. You will now have Cuban tobacco blended with other tobacco from various countries to make a new blend, if You don't think some manufacturers are not already trying this, I bet you are mistaken. But just like all tobacco, it's not the leaf itself that makes the cigar great, it's the blend and construction that does, will cigar prices go up? Probably. Will some companies fail? Yep. Will their be lots of lawsuits over cigar names and companies? You better believe it, The attorneys are the ones that are going to get mega rich behind the embargo being lifted.
It all comes down to this though, smoke what You like. After all, it's your flavor profile that is important. It's your money, so spend it like you want to, although be fiscally prudent too. Don't take someone's word that a cigar is bad, try it yourself and come to your own conclusion.
Gurkhas were hot (although I never understood the fanboy mentality of them) and now aren't. I think took much money was spent on the packaging instead of the blends and developing a cigar line that had staying power.
I'll be nice about RP, as I'm not a fan of his cigars. But, he is way on the downside of his ride, RP does know about marketing, but his full lines lack the complexity that cigar smokers want now,
Torano. Loved their lines until about a year before they sold out.
Cao, the marketing company that made cigars, I was never a fan, but they did make some cigars that people loved.
I could keep going about the failures and downswings, but I won't. You get the picture.
Cigar smokers today are aware of their pallates, know what strengths they like, but still engage in getting into buying the "hottest cigars" just because they are hard to obtain. Some cigars are overpriced, when you get to the fact that it's a bunch of leaves that will turn into ash. Yes, I'm oversimplifying it, but it's true. Some manufacturers think that If they make limited edition cigars all the time, they will keep their brands going, but that is not the case, one of those company's, Viaje, Constantly releases limited cigars to keep a buzz. Although I'm not a fan of their cigars, folks go nuts over them and say that the cigars are well made with great complex flavors.
manufactures like Padron, Fuente, AJ Fernandez, Litto, Pete, DE and others keep their staying power by making great quality cigars with the blends that enthusiasts enjoy. There are not changes in their essential lines or tweaks on these blends, Unfortunately, marketing is a part of the industry and is what keeps cigar companies in the "news" if you will. Often times, marketing is what causes the downswing of a company though, market th cigar wrong and no one wants it, creating too many limited edition cigars is also a brand killer imho,
Guys like Jon Huber and Sam Leccia, both with long cigar backgrounds and both ventured out on their own, keep the mainstay manufacturers on their toes by creating cigars that people want to smoke, which is why I say we are in the 3rd cigar boom. We also have an increase in small batch blend companies that are making cigars that people love to smoke,
Add now into the equation that the Cuban embargo appears to be ending and free trade with Cuban tobacco companies will be coming. You will now have Cuban tobacco blended with other tobacco from various countries to make a new blend, if You don't think some manufacturers are not already trying this, I bet you are mistaken. But just like all tobacco, it's not the leaf itself that makes the cigar great, it's the blend and construction that does, will cigar prices go up? Probably. Will some companies fail? Yep. Will their be lots of lawsuits over cigar names and companies? You better believe it, The attorneys are the ones that are going to get mega rich behind the embargo being lifted.
It all comes down to this though, smoke what You like. After all, it's your flavor profile that is important. It's your money, so spend it like you want to, although be fiscally prudent too. Don't take someone's word that a cigar is bad, try it yourself and come to your own conclusion.
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Wow, I think you hit the nail on the head (imho). I've only been back into cigars for a year or so and I've seen such a difference in the market from when I used to smoke more regularly back in the late 90s. In some ways, I feel that quality has improved across the board. Getting a "bad" one was more prevalent back then. Now it seems as though quality is more consistent throughout the majority of lines.
I love all the boutique brands and they are a nice departure from the "big box" guys - which speak to me more about what cigars are all about. The craft, the care, the skill, the experience. When bigger brands focus more on marketing (in the form of flashy labels and packaging), it takes away from that. The best marketing is the quality of the product and the service behind it. That's why Padron or even Jon Huber could package their cigars in a coffee can and people would still buy them.
As for decline, I have to say La Gloroa Cubana. I smoked them all the time before the buyout in '99. Of ones I've had over the past couple years, they do not seem the same.
Thanks Steve, great topic.
Obviously DE is a concern. But one that comes to mind right off the bat, is Padilla. I have zero input as to why, but he had the world by the balls with Pepin. The Miami 8+11, signature series, series 68. But for whatever reason, he left that and ended up in no mans land. I tried a few of his non Pepin stuff and lost interest. Like I said, I have no idea as to why, but it appears to me as being an epic fuck up.
As far as DE goes? Let's hope they continue in the direction you put them in, but I have my doubts. Mastershake has some very good points.
Thanks Steve
Obviously DE is a concern. But one that comes to mind right off the bat, is Padilla. I have zero input as to why, but he had the world by the balls with Pepin. The Miami 8+11, signature series, series 68. But for whatever reason, he left that and ended up in no mans land. I tried a few of his non Pepin stuff and lost interest. Like I said, I have no idea as to why, but it appears to me as being an epic fuck up.
As far as DE goes? Let's hope they continue in the direction you put them in, but I have my doubts. Mastershake has some very good points.
Thanks Steve
Awesome topic!
Up and Up:
Crowned Heads - I remember the first time I smoke a Four Kicks and I was amazed. Every release has been fantastic in my opinion. Also, those main lines are still great smokes. What Jon has done, most people can't do. I am truly looking forward to the future with them and see them on the "Up and Up" for years to come. Keep up the good work Jon! PS Angel's Anvil truly amazing cigar.
Drew Estate - I will probably be in minority here, but I think Drew Estate is still a premier cigar company and has put out some really tasty products with Willy H there. The HE Limited Edition Lancero is one my true favs. I still love the undercrown as well as the LP 9. Yes, I am nervous about the Swisher thing.
To Early to Tell:
Caldwell Cigars - I have had most of their lines and multiple boxes in storage as well, but to be honest I have not been too impressed with their stuff. I find the prices pretty high for the quality I am getting. I won't put true judgement down for another couple of years.
Tatuaje - I know, I know you say Tats have been around for a long time, but I really did not smoke many until this past couple of years. From what I have had this past year, TAA 14, it's been fantastic. I am excited to try more in the future.
Down Slope:
Arturo Fuente - I used to smoke a ton of AF's lines when I first started, but for the past few years I just have not liked much that I have had - this includes the Anejos. Maybe my flavor palate has changed, but I actually really dislike the Anejo. The one exception is the OPUS X.
Gran Habano: Truly loved the Vinatge 2002 a few years ago, but I have had a few of their newer lines and I just think that are just pushing out the "cheap" cigar.
Alec Bradley - What happened? I still enjoy the black market on occasion, but coming from very highly rated cigars, I just think they have gone DOWN SLOPE very quickly.
Up and Up:
Crowned Heads - I remember the first time I smoke a Four Kicks and I was amazed. Every release has been fantastic in my opinion. Also, those main lines are still great smokes. What Jon has done, most people can't do. I am truly looking forward to the future with them and see them on the "Up and Up" for years to come. Keep up the good work Jon! PS Angel's Anvil truly amazing cigar.
Drew Estate - I will probably be in minority here, but I think Drew Estate is still a premier cigar company and has put out some really tasty products with Willy H there. The HE Limited Edition Lancero is one my true favs. I still love the undercrown as well as the LP 9. Yes, I am nervous about the Swisher thing.
To Early to Tell:
Caldwell Cigars - I have had most of their lines and multiple boxes in storage as well, but to be honest I have not been too impressed with their stuff. I find the prices pretty high for the quality I am getting. I won't put true judgement down for another couple of years.
Tatuaje - I know, I know you say Tats have been around for a long time, but I really did not smoke many until this past couple of years. From what I have had this past year, TAA 14, it's been fantastic. I am excited to try more in the future.
Down Slope:
Arturo Fuente - I used to smoke a ton of AF's lines when I first started, but for the past few years I just have not liked much that I have had - this includes the Anejos. Maybe my flavor palate has changed, but I actually really dislike the Anejo. The one exception is the OPUS X.
Gran Habano: Truly loved the Vinatge 2002 a few years ago, but I have had a few of their newer lines and I just think that are just pushing out the "cheap" cigar.
Alec Bradley - What happened? I still enjoy the black market on occasion, but coming from very highly rated cigars, I just think they have gone DOWN SLOPE very quickly.
UP swing:
Camacho-I've always been a fan of the Corojo and when I tried the Ecuador I really enjoyed it. Heard great things about the Blackout, just haven't got to it yet. I find their stuff to be flavorful and they seem to be making a push to become more relevant.
Crowned Heads- When you're at the top its pretty hard to go up further, but I feel like these guys have their finger on the pulse of what most of us really want (I would like to think BOTL has something to do with that). They are leaving the large ring gauges alone (thankfully) and constantly turning out quality, tasty stuff. Introduction of the quick smokes (Shots), other sizes/line extensions like the corona and new JD Howard lancero are great, and their regional releases give the brand more allure as they aren't available every where. I like this company more everyday and Mr. Huber is an absolute gentleman. Looking forward to their upcoming projects.
DOWN swing:
Alec Bradley: seems as though this company has disappeared. Recent releases have been less than stellar and I rarely see any mention of them here. The Presenado was a nice smoke, not quite worthy of CA's #1 in 2011, but since that achievement its been downhill, FAST.
Drew Estate: I fully agree with their stuff being overpriced. The cost of an LP, currently, IMO should be about $8-9, not $14. For that reason I leave the cigar alone; I used to love the LP 9 Belicoso, but they aren't the same. Since the big pay day (which you can't be mad at, all of us would) it seems things are getting gimmicky. The Eminem cigar and the Smoking Monk line, which I have heard nothing good about, tell me they left behind the true cigar smokers and moved on to capturing a new audience. Good for those who profit, bad for us. Its unfortunate to see a company fall off like this.
Somewhere in the Middle: Oliva-I love the serie V and think they produce some of the sexiest looking tobacco around. That said, they need to release something new that's going to blow everyone away. Don't know what, that's for them to figure out, but they are due.
Camacho-I've always been a fan of the Corojo and when I tried the Ecuador I really enjoyed it. Heard great things about the Blackout, just haven't got to it yet. I find their stuff to be flavorful and they seem to be making a push to become more relevant.
Crowned Heads- When you're at the top its pretty hard to go up further, but I feel like these guys have their finger on the pulse of what most of us really want (I would like to think BOTL has something to do with that). They are leaving the large ring gauges alone (thankfully) and constantly turning out quality, tasty stuff. Introduction of the quick smokes (Shots), other sizes/line extensions like the corona and new JD Howard lancero are great, and their regional releases give the brand more allure as they aren't available every where. I like this company more everyday and Mr. Huber is an absolute gentleman. Looking forward to their upcoming projects.
DOWN swing:
Alec Bradley: seems as though this company has disappeared. Recent releases have been less than stellar and I rarely see any mention of them here. The Presenado was a nice smoke, not quite worthy of CA's #1 in 2011, but since that achievement its been downhill, FAST.
Drew Estate: I fully agree with their stuff being overpriced. The cost of an LP, currently, IMO should be about $8-9, not $14. For that reason I leave the cigar alone; I used to love the LP 9 Belicoso, but they aren't the same. Since the big pay day (which you can't be mad at, all of us would) it seems things are getting gimmicky. The Eminem cigar and the Smoking Monk line, which I have heard nothing good about, tell me they left behind the true cigar smokers and moved on to capturing a new audience. Good for those who profit, bad for us. Its unfortunate to see a company fall off like this.
Somewhere in the Middle: Oliva-I love the serie V and think they produce some of the sexiest looking tobacco around. That said, they need to release something new that's going to blow everyone away. Don't know what, that's for them to figure out, but they are due.
I used to smoke almost exclusively the CAO MX2 (I smoked less often, so it's just the one I grabbed the most), now I won't go near anything from that line. I understand about the acquisition and how it's not really the same cigar, but that's too bad.
I also used to smoke some Punch (non-cuban). I tried one the other day and it was terrible. Not enough to base an opinion on the brand as a whole, but enough to keep me from buying another. The truth is, there are too many great cigars out there to waste time taking a risk on a crappy brand.
As for DE - I think Liga's are overhyped and overpriced. That said, I really like the UC Cornona Viva and think the price point is pretty good. Like everyone else, I'm waiting and watching to see how the merger plays out.
I have been hearing lots of good things about AJ Fernandez. I finally tried a New World last week and was duly impressed. For the 6.50 price point (a single, at my B&M), it's hard to find a better cigar. I hope they continue to do good things.
I have always liked LFD and I think they're still doing some good things. The 1994 was a solid release. Someone on here gifted me a 5er of the Oriental in a petite corona and it's blown my mind. I'll be interested to see the new small batch, though the delay has me a little worried.
I also recently tried a Regius. My B&M pushes them a little (front and center in the humi, frequent events, etc). I got to meet Akhil the other day which was cool. So far I've only smoked a few, but they've all been good. I also really like that he's got a Corona, a Lanerco (sort of) and some other traditional sizes. I'm not on board with all this 6X60 crap!
Finally, I swear I'm almost done, I've smoked about 6 sticks of the 7-20-04 but KA Wendell. All 6 have been fantastic. I don't know anything about the brand, but I know I like whatever Kurt is doing with em. The couple Coronas I've had were among the best smokes this year.
OK, I'm done.
I also used to smoke some Punch (non-cuban). I tried one the other day and it was terrible. Not enough to base an opinion on the brand as a whole, but enough to keep me from buying another. The truth is, there are too many great cigars out there to waste time taking a risk on a crappy brand.
As for DE - I think Liga's are overhyped and overpriced. That said, I really like the UC Cornona Viva and think the price point is pretty good. Like everyone else, I'm waiting and watching to see how the merger plays out.
I have been hearing lots of good things about AJ Fernandez. I finally tried a New World last week and was duly impressed. For the 6.50 price point (a single, at my B&M), it's hard to find a better cigar. I hope they continue to do good things.
I have always liked LFD and I think they're still doing some good things. The 1994 was a solid release. Someone on here gifted me a 5er of the Oriental in a petite corona and it's blown my mind. I'll be interested to see the new small batch, though the delay has me a little worried.
I also recently tried a Regius. My B&M pushes them a little (front and center in the humi, frequent events, etc). I got to meet Akhil the other day which was cool. So far I've only smoked a few, but they've all been good. I also really like that he's got a Corona, a Lanerco (sort of) and some other traditional sizes. I'm not on board with all this 6X60 crap!
Finally, I swear I'm almost done, I've smoked about 6 sticks of the 7-20-04 but KA Wendell. All 6 have been fantastic. I don't know anything about the brand, but I know I like whatever Kurt is doing with em. The couple Coronas I've had were among the best smokes this year.
OK, I'm done.
Here a while back, I had the urge, and bought what I had come to believe are two of the best cigars out there...a Liga Privada #9, and a Padron 1926. Along about that same time, I bought and received a sampler of a new boutique brand, Southern Draw. The two "super-premiums" were pretty good, I don't wanna foolya, but were they worth the price? Oh hell no! But the Southern Draws simply blew them away, to my taste! No comparison!
So I bought a box of the Southern Draws, smoke one a week as a treat. Another of my go to cigars, VERY consistent, always a great smoke and never a bummer, is El Rey del Mundo...I have some with the Nicaraguan wrappers in my humidor...been smoking them a long time, they don't up and down like what many are describing is happening with many brands in this thread.
Another of my go-to is the CAO Brazilia GOL...I've only been smoking CAO's for about a year so I don't have the history that some have, but they seem to always have a good cigar...I like the Brazilias and Italias, very consistent.
So I bought a box of the Southern Draws, smoke one a week as a treat. Another of my go to cigars, VERY consistent, always a great smoke and never a bummer, is El Rey del Mundo...I have some with the Nicaraguan wrappers in my humidor...been smoking them a long time, they don't up and down like what many are describing is happening with many brands in this thread.
Another of my go-to is the CAO Brazilia GOL...I've only been smoking CAO's for about a year so I don't have the history that some have, but they seem to always have a good cigar...I like the Brazilias and Italias, very consistent.