Guns, sticks and knives oh my

[LikeAPuma]

Curious to know whatcha think of them or what a better positive retention system would be. Thanks in advance.

This was all that was asked.

Based on MY experiences (which may not be as lengthy as some), I've seen many people successfully use them without issue. Hence, why I offered a positive opinion of them.

As for other holsters, I've seen a few Safariland ALS holsters. Not having used them, I can't vouch for them....

Does a DD214 need to be submitted with this personal opinion?

 

[mdwest]

You want to recommend something that is known to be problematic and to be involved in multiple incidents that has gotten people hurt... You should let people know what qualifies your opinion so they can determine if it has any value or not....

Do you also have an opinion on cancer treatment? You might know someone whose had cancer.. You might have had it yourself and survived... You might have even read a medical journal or two.. But you're not a doctor...

Why would I place any value on your opinion at all? Cancer is serious shit.. Taking your advice might get me dead..

Do you think firearms are less serious? So just because you have an opinion people should listen or care? And that you shouldn't have to qualify opinions related to them?

 

[apnutter]

A person was looking for an opinion and that is what they got OPINIONS. You do not need to be a professional to offer an OPINION! Being a cancer patient and offering opinions on treatment is one thing, an opinion. Being a doctor and offering an opinion is another. Difference is, the patient can speak from personal experience, the doctor not so much. This does not mean the patients opinions is more valuable than the doctors but it does entitle the patient to such an opinion.

This is getting ridiculous! Guys offer personal opinions, we are allowed to do that! You say your not trying to start an argument, however the wording and context of your responses says otherwise.

No one was offering a scientific response to a Serpa holster or anything to say that their opinions were the words of the holster gods.

And no, just because one has an opinion does not mean people should listen or care, even if they ask for that opinion. You obviously have your opinion and I have mine. I will research why these holsters are so "dangerous", however, after carrying a firearm in one along with an entire department, my opinion was based on my experience, not google.

This is a forum where people should not be afraid to post opinions on things they have experience with. It'd be one thing if guys never heard of a serpa holster, looked it up online and were saying "oh those are cool looking, they're ok". To be attacked after every post is ridiculous. My opinion was voiced as was yours, I'm done.

 

[mdwest]

No one is saying you should be afraid to state an opinion..

What is being said is before you offer an opinion on something that can get someone hurt.. That it should be qualified..

My professional advice, as a firearms instructor with more than 15 years of experience teaching advanced weapons skills and tactics.. With credentials from 2 states, the FBI and numerous private organization..and roughly 1800 students under my belt.. Is to avoid serpas..

If your opinion is otherwise.. As stated before.. Cool.. Let's debate it... Qualify your opinion.. Let people know why your opinion is of value.. Let people know why your opinion matters.. No one needs a scientific response.. What is needed is qualification of the opinion.. As has been asked several times... Where does this opinion come from? Why is it of value? The fact that you personally haven't shot yourself is pretty weak.. What else can you reference?

Simply making carte blanche statements about something that can get people hurt.. Should never be tolerated...

Those who don't know any better May get sucked in...

If it offends you that I will address that and take every opportunity to make sure that it doesn't happen... Well.. Frankly.. Sucks to be you..

I value the members of this boards safety and welfare more than that to worry about whose feelings might get hurt in the process..

Want to have an opinion about something that can hurt someone? As long as you're prepared to back it up.. I'm cool with it.. If you can't... Not cool... And rather than put the members of this board at risk.. I would recommend you simply keep unqualified opinions to yourself...

If you choose not to.. Again, not a problem... Just don't try to cry foul when you are called out for it.. I for one will do it every single time...

Unqualified opinions on things that won't hurt people.. Have at them.. I could care less.. and will rarely if ever challenge people over them...

 

[apnutter]

No one's crying foul and it takes a little more than a simple disagreement to hurt my feelings or offend me. Most issues with the Serpa is user error from what I have seen. People incorrectly drawing the weapon from the holster with a bent finger and squeezing the trigger during the draw, not the holster itself.

I have used one with success for years and will continue to do so.

 

[smokinghole]

Whoa. Love you brother but cool your jets Francis. You're coming across very combative and basically attacking the other guy. You proved your point, at least 4 times, and did your best to discredit the other side in order to be right. In life people get to offer opinions and people have the choice to follow the opinions of whoever they want. Sometimes the opinions are quacked up sometimes it's legitimate knowledge. I will admit to having a sherpa holster and only ever having used it a few times. I also did not know about the big time bans on the use of the holster. So because you're an insider you could take it a little easier.....

 

[mdwest]

No doubt it's user error the majority of the time... Which equals training error more often than not...

Training (both formal and informal) is something a casual user/owner has very limited access to most of the time... Even most cops and soldiers have very limited training time and resources more often than not...

There is also the issue with the "button" being prone to malfunction when debris or sand/mud/etc is present..

Blackhawks has attempted to correct some of the flaws in the serpa and has changed the design since the original release.. But not to the satisfaction of any organization that has already banned them..

If you choose to use one.. Awesome.. Seriously.. I sincerely hope it serves you well and you remain safe..

I just can't justify recommending one to anyone else.. Knowing it comes with such a poor history and significant liability attached.. When there are so many other options without the same problems attached to them

 

[mdwest]

Whoa. Love you brother but cool your jets Francis. You're coming across very combative and basically attacking the other guy.

Not the intention.

But.. Several questions were asked.. That were left unanswered.. And instead a response of "I get an opinion too" was fielded..

I take firearms extremely seriously.. And refuse to sit on the sidelines and have people put in a position where they can be injured without speaking out..

If that makes me appear combative.. I'll wear that badge proudly..

 

[3/5King]

Safety is very important mdwest. Might I suggest focusing your energy on providing information to validate your opinion and inform your fellow BOTL and less energy on discrediting a fellow professional's opinion based on personal experience in the field. Your passion about your brothers' safety is commendable and understandable as I'm sure everyone here wants to practice safety first.

 

[mdwest]

How much more information is needed?

The serpa has been banned by the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC)... google "FLETC bans serpa".. their findings and reasoning is available to download in a Department of Homeland Security document.. long story short.. an executive order was issued as the holster was found to be extremely unsafe by a team of seasoned firearms instructors..

IDPA banned the serpa.. google "IDPA ban serpa".. again, plenty of reference material... IDPA found the holster unsafe and unfit for competition after it was reviewed by a team of firearms instructors and range safety officers..

A google search of "ban serpa" will unveil hundreds of reference articles where police departments, security organizations, etc.. have banned the serpa.. for a wide variety of reasons.. mostly for finding them unsafe and the liability associated with allowing their use...

All of the above was mentioned early on in this discussion... is that not enough to validate the position?

Later, it was mentioned, for those that didnt already know (many here do).. that I personally have extensive experience in teaching/training firearms to a wide variety of student groups (they include, but are not limited to.. USMC Force Reconnaissance, Department of Energy National Nuclear Security Administration Office of Secure Transport teams, tactical teams from large law enforcement agencies, as well as private student groups) .. and that my opinion also comes from that source... In short, organizations have paid me, and I have earned a living providing training to people on these very sorts of topics/issues..

If more validation is needed.. I can provide it... I would have thought that would have been enough though?

Does that make my opinion/position infallible? Absolutely not.. does it mean that someone else cant have an opposing position? absolutely not.... are there people with more experience/knowledge/capability than I? Most certainly...

What has been asked of others, and not provided.. was validation on the opposing opinion, beyond personal use... so that people reading this thread can determine the value of those peoples opinions.. on this specific issue..

As said before.. if anyone is offended by my push to have opposing opinions validated... thats not the intent.. but... I am also not sorry for pushing to have those questions answered.. people need to know where opinions come from and how they are determined when it comes to things that can get them hurt..

 

[3/5King]

Yes, you've validated your credentials and the opinion you've provided. More than well enough. It still doesn't mean that other professionals cannot voice their opinion even if it is only through personal use in the field. That, to me is a legitimate opinion. Whether that makes them safe or not is another story.

If they have numerous years of using said holster in the field, under Duress and otherwise, without harm and they are using it in the proper manner, then their is no reason their opinion shouldn't be considered valid and note worthy.. Regardless of how much evidence there is against the holster. It would be better served to calmly inform everyone of the information you possess and let people come to their own conclusions. Maybe the ones backing the functionality and safety of the holster would take a second look.

 

[CATom]

I can appreciate the "other side of of the coin" point of view. I did some of my own research and Dave is right! These holsters can be incredibly dangerous and have a built in design flaw!

 

[sofc]

Whoa. Love you brother but cool your jets Francis. You're coming across very combative and basically attacking the other guy. You proved your point, at least 4 times, and did your best to discredit the other side in order to be right.

In my experience, and I've clearly not read everything that is posted on BOTL but I've been around for a while, while MDWEST seems combative, it is because he's passionate about the issue and is concerned people's safety. Discrediting someone else does not make you right and I'm pretty sure Dave thinks he is right whether anyone else agrees or not.

I don't want to speak for him but this is just my opinion

 

[mdwest]

Yes, you've validated your credentials and the opinion you've provided. More than well enough. It still doesn't mean that other professionals cannot voice their opinion even if it is only through personal use in the field. That, to me is a legitimate opinion. Whether that makes them safe or not is another story.

Which is exactly why the questions were asked of the people that were advocating the serpa.. Are they professionals? and if so, how have they derived their opinion?



This guy managed to shoot himself while using a serpa... in the manner that most documented serpa negligent discharges happen (on the draw, where the finger is in a bad position due to activating the release button on the side of the holster) and captured it on video..

[video=youtube;zYvAxLX6OzE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzE[/video]

 

[3/5King]

What I've gotten from this is that; can these holsters be used for years without issue? Yes. Is there a great possibility that someone using this holster might one day encounter an issue that could compromise safety? Yes.

I just want to see respect shown is all. A strong belief on a subject that concerns others safety can understandably get passionate and tempers may flare but we need to remember that we're all brothers looking out for one another and the approach should be handled with understanding and respect for others. The bully approach never goes over well in any format.. Even if unintentional.

 

[mdwest]

Passionate yes... I admittedly am..

Temper flare... hasnt happened (maybe that isnt evident in typed format? but again, those that know me... and several here do on a personal level.. would know that I rarely get angry of have a temper issue with much of anything... I am however extremely "matter of fact"... and direct in my approach to almost everything in life)...

Disrespect? Maybe Im stupid.. but.. I just re-read the entire thread.. where is this shown? Is asking someone to validate their opinion disrespectful? Asking very specific questions of how someone has developed their opinion is disrespectful? Its been said several times in this thread.. in matters where people can get hurt.. opposing opinions are actually welcomed.. but... will be questioned.. and should be validated.... do you disagree with this?

 

[apnutter]

Again, user flaws. He openly blames himself and not the holster. The holster is not causing weapons to fire discharge when drawn. It is the user and lack of training with their equipment. This was my initial response when the poster that I responded to asked if its caused by the lack of training with the Serpas.

No holster is perfect and no one should use any holster unfamiliar to them with a loaded firearm. I understand and share your concern with firearms and firearm safety. Because I like the Serpas does not mean that someone unfamiliar with them should go out, buy one, slam a loaded weapon in it and be "ready to go".

I use one everyday, I draw from it daily, I practice with it, I qualify with it and I feel comfortable with it that no piece of shit is going to take my gun from it. Are their better holsters out there, yes. Are they all safer, no.

 

[mdwest]

Agreed... User error....

Which flows back to a training error..

and.. since most private citizens receive extremely limited training... most cops and soliders recieve limited training.. and major training centers around the country have banned the serpa because they have found that they can not consistently train students to use them properly due to design issues.. why would the serpa be recommended..

You are an exception to the rule.. you are conducting daily draw stroke practice.. and are going WAY above and beyond what the vast majority of even people that would consider themselves "trained professionals" will ever do.... if you are making the serpa work for you.. that is sincerely great... as said before, I do sincerely hope it serves you well and you continue to be safe..

Back when I was still working the streets.. I knew of exactly 3 guys that worked on my tactical team (out of 16) that actually did draw stroke training daily... I am certain the number of officers that were committed to draw stroke training in other units was substantially lower..

My personal regimen.. was 10x dry fire draw strokes before every shift when I put on my duty belt... and 10x dry fire draw strokes at the end of every shift before I took the belt off.... took all of about an additional 5 minutes a day...

but thats 5 minutes that sadly, most will never invest... even knowing their own life is at stake...

 

[3/5King]

Passionate yes... I admittedly am..

Temper flare... hasnt happened (maybe that isnt evident in typed format? but again, those that know me... and several here do on a personal level.. would know that I rarely get angry of have a temper issue with much of anything... I am however extremely "matter of fact"... and direct in my approach to almost everything in life)...

Disrespect? Maybe Im stupid.. but.. I just re-read the entire thread.. where is this shown? Is asking someone to validate their opinion disrespectful? Asking very specific questions of how someone has developed their opinion is disrespectful? Its been said several times in this thread.. in matters where people can get hurt.. opposing opinions are actually welcomed.. but... will be questioned.. and should be validated.... do you disagree with this?

If it offends you that I will address that and take every opportunity to make sure that it doesn't happen... Well.. Frankly.. Sucks to be you..

I value the members of this boards safety and welfare more than that to worry about whose feelings might get hurt in the process..

Want to have an opinion about something that can hurt someone? As long as you're prepared to back it up.. I'm cool with it.. If you can't... Not cool... And rather than put the members of this board at risk.. I would recommend you simply keep unqualified opinions to yourself...

This is the only part I consider disrespectful.

I also believe that a trainer is not the only one with a qualified opinion. If appnutter is a professional in the field and uses one daily and recommends it, that is his qualified (qualified through personal experience) opinion. He is only giving his personal experience with it and how he is qualified to give that opinion (daily use through law enforcement)

Maybe it's not for everyone but that doesn't mean it's not for anyone.

 

[mdwest]

Im pretty sure (at least he has stated as much I believe) that apnutter has not been offended by those comments... they are certainly direct, and very much matter of fact.. and I would maintain that they very accurately express my position on the issue.. that I do not care in the slightest if someone is offended by being pushed to directly answer how their opinion is qualified when it comes to matters of personal safety.. if that makes me wrong.. as said before.. I'll wear that badge proudly...

I also agree that the opinion of someone carrying a holster every day in the field has some value...

The question is... how much? Does that trump the team of FLETC instructors that had a cumulative 120 years of instructional experience who said its unsafe? or the safety team of one of the largest competitive organizations on the planet saying its unsafe? Or the numerous people that have shot themselves.. or the even larger number of people that have had negligent discharges but have been fortunate enough to not shoot themselves or someone else in the process?

Only you can be the judge...

But I would maintain.. that it is not improper, when faced with the stacks and stacks of reports, studies, etc.. generated by people with cumulatively thousands of years of experience.. to ask for further validation when the opinion of a single person appears to be different...