If you read up on the technology that Luxidor Humidors use and you will find that the external RH around the cigar and the internal RH of the cigars are two different numbers. There was an interview with them on one of the podcasts (maybe Stogie Geeks) where they discussed their process and how they came to it and how they found the internal RH # of 13 to be ideal.
Hygrometer Probe...for Cigar Science
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Ok. Looked it up but didn't get far. Found the luxudor website and saw where they talk a tiny bit about 13% being the optimal internal RH but nothing on how they arrived at that nor how they measured that. Found it odd that this was the RH to get "optimal nicotine extraction" but that's not what I personally want. I want the RH that gives the best overall performance and maximum flavor. Possibly they are synonymous. I also found it odd that they implied one number applies to all cigars. I've read that it will be different depending on ring gauge, leaf type/species, etc. They probably are dumbing it down a bit for marketing sake.
I scanned cigar geeks as well but couldn't find any threads on the subject. If you run across anything please do share!
I happen to own a company that make moisture meters for wood so I know a bit about the subject. Here are a few thoughts.
1.Some materials conduct electrical current much better that others. A simple Ohm meter can do the job if tobacco leaves are good conductors but if they perform more like wood, which is an insulator, then you would need a device that reads very high resistances such as a wood moisture meter. You can buy them at woodworking stores.
2. When using electrical resistance as a measurement you are actually measuring the moisture content as a percent by weight. You are not measuring humidity. For example, cigar that is properly humidified may have a 40% moisture content so the 65% RH that we refer to is not relevant to actual moisture content. Actual moisture content is a much better measurement because it is absolute and is not affected by temperature like "relative" humidity is.
3. You would have to sacrifice several cigars to determine the relationship between a properly humidified cigar and the actual moisture content. I can give you further info if you want.
4. The biggest problem would be that a cigar is made of multiple leaves and therefore is not a homogeneous material. This means that the resistance that is measured would be affected by the moisture content (good) and also the amount of surface contact of the leaves inside the cigar (bad). The difference in continuity from one cigar to the next may render the readings useless.
Cool idea though.
1.Some materials conduct electrical current much better that others. A simple Ohm meter can do the job if tobacco leaves are good conductors but if they perform more like wood, which is an insulator, then you would need a device that reads very high resistances such as a wood moisture meter. You can buy them at woodworking stores.
2. When using electrical resistance as a measurement you are actually measuring the moisture content as a percent by weight. You are not measuring humidity. For example, cigar that is properly humidified may have a 40% moisture content so the 65% RH that we refer to is not relevant to actual moisture content. Actual moisture content is a much better measurement because it is absolute and is not affected by temperature like "relative" humidity is.
3. You would have to sacrifice several cigars to determine the relationship between a properly humidified cigar and the actual moisture content. I can give you further info if you want.
4. The biggest problem would be that a cigar is made of multiple leaves and therefore is not a homogeneous material. This means that the resistance that is measured would be affected by the moisture content (good) and also the amount of surface contact of the leaves inside the cigar (bad). The difference in continuity from one cigar to the next may render the readings useless.
Cool idea though.
cgraunke
BoM March '14
Pretty certain that 13% is moisture by weight and not relative humidity. The same subject pops up in the pipe tobacco circles regularly, people assuming they're all talking about the same thing. Not so, though.
Yeah, RH cannot be measured by a moisture meter that uses electrical resistance. It is % moisture by weight. It is a valid reading and it is used in the agriculture industry when drying hay and I think it's also used when fermenting tobacco. The trick is to find what moisture content relates to a cigar conditioned at your favorite RH. Here is how to do it for any cigar geeks out there.
You need a high quality bench scale that measures very small weights. Take a cigar that you know is conditioned perfectly. Measure the MC using the electrical resistance method. Then measure the weight. Then put the cigar in the oven and totally dry it out. Measure the weight every once in a while and when it no longer losses any weight then it is fully dry. Take the oven-dry weight and divide it by the starting weight and the result will be the % MC by weight. This value corresponds to the electrical resistance that you measured at the beginning.
The problem is that you would also have to do this for cigars that you know are over-humidified and also under-humidified so that you know the sensitivity of your readings. You would also need to repeat the process several times to see if the readings are consistent, which I doubt they would be due to the random leaf placement as I referred to in my previous post. The testing would ruin a lot of cigars.
You are , of course, correct. I was doing too much typing and not enough thinking.
%MC = starting weight - oven-dry weight / starting weight x 100
Thanks for the correction.
I work for a company that makes equipment that deals with moisture readings, mostly for laboratory work. There are all sorts of meters, etc. out there, but I am not sure I have ever ran into exactly what you are talking about. Try some of the lab supply sites. A quick search on one brought up the link below. Very expensive for a cigar gadget, but it may be in the right direction.
https://us.vwr.com/store/product/4595366/vwr-moisture-meter
This one looks even closer to what I think you are talkign about - bit it doesnt read in RH
https://us.vwr.com/store/product/8885518/rapitest-moisture-meter
Curious to see what you find. Good luck.
https://us.vwr.com/store/product/4595366/vwr-moisture-meter
This one looks even closer to what I think you are talkign about - bit it doesnt read in RH
https://us.vwr.com/store/product/8885518/rapitest-moisture-meter
Curious to see what you find. Good luck.
Here's a wood moisture meter for $30. http://www.leevalley.com/en/hardware/page.aspx?p=71986&cat=1,43513
You can get similar units at similar prices at Home Depot or other wood stores. These are the easiest to modify. You can make whatever pin, plate or needle type probe that you want and simply run a wire and clip it to the probes on the end of the meter.
You can get similar units at similar prices at Home Depot or other wood stores. These are the easiest to modify. You can make whatever pin, plate or needle type probe that you want and simply run a wire and clip it to the probes on the end of the meter.
Yep. We think alike. I did exactly this and already got the reader and wired clips in from Amazon. Waiting on the long sewing needles. Im thinking the air gap distance between the ends of needles inside the cigar probably has to be the same as the distance they are on the reader to get the right reading, would you agree? Also concur w/ your point about tobacco not being a homogenous substance and that this will likely throw the reading off depending on the exact location the two pins are in relation to leaf and air gap. I suppose if one compressed the cigar somehow as it was being read to get rid of air gaps you could probably get a better reading, but it would ruin the cigar obviously. Maybe if I sacrificed some of the tip off, compressed that tip down then probed it, I could get a read on the whole cigar though I would think the center of the cigar would be more moist than the ends. Hmm.
Now that you cleared it up that we arent measuring RH but percentage of moisture content it makes perfect sense to just do the weight scale method. I actually have a very accurate micro-gram scale (I use it for one of my other passions...perfect espresso!) and will give you and jimmy-d's tutorial and see what I come up with. Thanks a lot for taking the time to type all this up! Really helpful!
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I'm not an expert on measuring MC in cigars but I can tell you that the distance between the probes is not important. The resistance reading will not change due to a few inches more or less. My suggestion is to not use sewing needles. I would use a metal disk and push the foot of the cigar against the disk to try and get as much surface area as possible in contact with the disk. This would help average the reading over a larger area of the cigar (more of the leaves). A needle could be used at the head so as to not damage the cap.
The first test I would do is measure all the cigars in your humidor. Assuming they are all at the same RH then the meter should give you the same reading. If it doesn't then you know the bunching of the leaves has too large an influence on the readings to give you consistent results.
If the results are consistent and before you do the weight scale method I would do another test to check sensitivity. You will need 3 cigars. One should be properly humidified, one should be about 5% over humidified and the third should be 5% under humidified. It would take several weeks to insure these over and under cigars are stable. If you take readings on these 3 cigars you would see if your meter is sensitive enough to discern the difference. A 5% change in a piece of wood is significant and easily read by the meter but I don't know how that relates to cigars.
The first test I would do is measure all the cigars in your humidor. Assuming they are all at the same RH then the meter should give you the same reading. If it doesn't then you know the bunching of the leaves has too large an influence on the readings to give you consistent results.
If the results are consistent and before you do the weight scale method I would do another test to check sensitivity. You will need 3 cigars. One should be properly humidified, one should be about 5% over humidified and the third should be 5% under humidified. It would take several weeks to insure these over and under cigars are stable. If you take readings on these 3 cigars you would see if your meter is sensitive enough to discern the difference. A 5% change in a piece of wood is significant and easily read by the meter but I don't know how that relates to cigars.
So, I've made some mildly interesting discoveries on this lately. Following some advice by Bruce T (Thanks bro) I have a rudimentary cigar moisture tester set up going and it 'seems' to be working. 'Working' in that it is definitely giving readings of moisture content percentage for cigars tested. With that, I have set up a study where I have several same size tupperdors going each with a different boveda pack in them ranging from high 50's to low 70's. Also in each are SensorPush digital hygrometers that are logging the data real time and uploading graphs to my iphone. I can already tell when the cigars are humidified to the level set by the boveda because the measurment curves level out over time and hold steady (I assume that means the organic material inside each is 100% equalized or at least very close). From there I have set up a journal and have started smoking the same cigar from each humidor and noting performance and flavor. (I also weighed and logged each cigar before hand and plucked out the cigars from each type that match gram weight. These cigars also are all from the same box/batch date).
It's early on in the study but I'm already starting to see a correlation between the moisture level readings of each stick and the corresponding humidity level set by the respective boveda pack. It's definitely detecting different readings (lower % for lower RH sample, higher % for higher RH) for each synonymous cigar depending on which humidor it comes from - and its pretty linear, as you would expect.
Goal of the study would be to build a data base of popular cigars and vitolas and document the moisture levels that smoke "best" (IMO) of each using my handy dandy CigarWizard (working title. heh). From there one theoretically could pluck any cigar from this list from any box, refrigidor, forgotten cigar left in jacket pocket, etc. measure the moisture level and instantly tell if its likely going to smoke in that 'sweet spot' established in the study. This could really prove useful for ROTT sticks, yeah?
Only variable I can't really acct for is how much difference gram weight will affect things as I am seeing up to multiple gram differences in the exact same cigar when measuring out a box. Yes, Premium and ultra premium cigars with that much variance. (I was surprised to see this) Someone much smarter than me (wouldn't take much) perhaps could either confirm gram weight wouldn't matter, or figure out a factor to use (for those of us geeky enough to care about this study) to adjust for the actual gram weight of said cigar - if even necessary. Hoping my study also reveals the weight (thus cigar density, conductivity) doesn't matter. Sure would simplify things. Well, simplest would be to just take sh.t out and smoke it - but I gotta be me.
It's early on in the study but I'm already starting to see a correlation between the moisture level readings of each stick and the corresponding humidity level set by the respective boveda pack. It's definitely detecting different readings (lower % for lower RH sample, higher % for higher RH) for each synonymous cigar depending on which humidor it comes from - and its pretty linear, as you would expect.
Goal of the study would be to build a data base of popular cigars and vitolas and document the moisture levels that smoke "best" (IMO) of each using my handy dandy CigarWizard (working title. heh). From there one theoretically could pluck any cigar from this list from any box, refrigidor, forgotten cigar left in jacket pocket, etc. measure the moisture level and instantly tell if its likely going to smoke in that 'sweet spot' established in the study. This could really prove useful for ROTT sticks, yeah?
Only variable I can't really acct for is how much difference gram weight will affect things as I am seeing up to multiple gram differences in the exact same cigar when measuring out a box. Yes, Premium and ultra premium cigars with that much variance. (I was surprised to see this) Someone much smarter than me (wouldn't take much) perhaps could either confirm gram weight wouldn't matter, or figure out a factor to use (for those of us geeky enough to care about this study) to adjust for the actual gram weight of said cigar - if even necessary. Hoping my study also reveals the weight (thus cigar density, conductivity) doesn't matter. Sure would simplify things. Well, simplest would be to just take sh.t out and smoke it - but I gotta be me.
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I was actually being serious with the question.
Unless you've had boxes of the cigar and know the flavors, it is hard to pinpoint optimal. Testing the same stick in 5 different rhs won't do the job without a control and a decent sized sample. (and that was way way more than I intended to get into in this thread.)
Gotta be a misunderstanding of what I'm testing. It's as if you are saying over humidified or under humidified smokes all still smoke the same. That moisture levels don't matter in performance or taste. Surely you aren't saying that.
In my study I will be smoking (essentially) the same cigar (same weight, same box/age) with the only variable being different moisture levels (whatever those will be based on the different RH saturation levels of each boveda. TBD.). Why would you need more than those 5 cigars to note those differences. You don't think I'll detect a bell curve of performance (burn quality, smoke temperature, smoke density, smoke oilyness etc) and taste (which is more subjective of course) but for me smokes that are too wet or too dry reveal all sorts of bad tastes (and performance) I don't get from a properly humidified one.
If it works, this gadget will help discover what those preferred moisture levels are and know instantly that a stick is at that level or not. Right?
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The human variable is immense and subjective. It can't be quantified. When did you smoke? Did you eat? How long ago? Were you with friends? What were you drinking? Do you have a cold? When was the last time you smoked? Did you fight with your spouse/girlfriend? The list is endless. And is the reason most of us say the perfect smoke had as much to do with environment and circumstance as cigar.