I hate to see this

[L8A]

Eh to each his own opinion, but I just dont see how the actions werent wrong. I am not villifying them saying they are evil and should burn, I just think that it was a dumb move that affects the country as a whole due to the uniform that they wear.

Agreed. Perception becomes reality if it isnt already.

 

[gibbleguts]

Our boys have enough crap to deal with over there w/o their own countrymen and media outlets villifying them. The only thing I see "wrong" in all this is actually videotaping it.

Really? I see it as wrong being pushed through the media but would be scared to see what the military would turn into if this behavior was promoted. I understand that they go through a lot and these things happen but telling them this is all good is not the right answer.

 

[hdroadglide]

now every politician cant wait to get their faces in front of a camera so they can apologize.

 

[RonC]

that video doesnt bother me one bit. i know that there is politics involved, so let the politicians handle it. These are young kids who have been through hell. if the tides were turned, the enemy would be doing much worse to the bodies of our soldiers.

 

[fuente~fuente]

Wrong or not... Those guys are fighting for our country, & doing something a lot of people do not want to do, or have the balls to sign up for.

I am not, nor have I ever been in the military BTW...

 

[njstone]

I'm gonna post another point of view here fellas. You're not going to like it, but here it is.

To nearly all of YOU GUYS, of course this seems outrageous. But let me ask all of you outraged people this ...

When was the last time you had to kill someone? Seriously. When was the last time that your country told you it was your patriotic duty to stab someone in the face, or shoot an RPG up their butt? Anybody? Anybody know what that was? And which is worse ... or harder ... killing a man or pissing on one?

When was the last time you had to CHOKE THE LIFE OUT OF ANOTHER HUMAN BEING, and watch the spark drain from their eyes? When was the last time you had to send some mother's favorite son home to her in pieces? When was the last time you--out of nowhere--turned to see your best friend's face fall into a pile of mush right in front of you, and then you had to immediately go protect the rest of your crew?

You have no effing clue.

I'm guessing almost none of you have had to do any of those things--and that's a very good thing. But these men and women are asked to do these things on a daily basis. I understand that from all of your points of view this video and things like it are "inexcusable," But front-line soldiers have to have a different point of view than yours, because unlike you they have to kill people.

I'm not saying this to justify what was done. I think it's wrong, period. However, you'd have to understand the psychological state of front-line soldiers in order to understand why they would do something like this. In order to walk up to another human being and stab them in the eye with a Ka-bar, most people would have to first believe that this person is evil. They are the scum of the earth and MUST be stopped at all costs, etc. etc.

Every front-line soldier motivates themselves differently in order to cope with the severe psychological trauma of having to kill people regularly. For many, that means going to rather extreme measures at times. For many Native Americans, it meant scalping their enemy. For others, cutting off an ear. For some today, making notches on their rifle or the side of their aircraft is sufficient, which I think is more healthy.

How can we judge our soldiers for making an error in judgement while in the high of battle? Most of us will never experience that kind of rage-meets-serenity experience, when your every movement means life or death for you and your companions. When you know for a fact you could die any second if you don't make the other guy die first. We're talking adrenaline, endorphins, and an emotional state that most of us can't truly imagine. Once the battle is over, it's difficult (especially at first) to just turn that off. It's easy to think, "These bastards killed Nick and Tex and Ravi ... killing them back just isn't enough ..."

Again, I"m not condoning stuff like we see on this video, I'm explaining why stuff like this has happened throughout the entire history of warfare and will continue to do so. And I'm asking that all of us not be so quick to judge something that we have no idea about.

 

[usmcpurcell]

I'm gonna post another point of view here fellas. You're not going to like it, but here it is.

To nearly all of YOU GUYS, of course this seems outrageous. But let me ask all of you outraged people this ...

When was the last time you had to kill someone? Seriously. When was the last time that your country told you it was your patriotic duty to stab someone in the face, or shoot an RPG up their butt? Anybody? Anybody know what that was?

When was the last time you had to CHOKE THE LIFE OUT OF ANOTHER HUMAN BEING, and watch the spark drain from their eyes? When was the last time you had to send some mother's favorite son home to her in pieces? When was the last time you--out of nowhere--turned to see your best friend's face fall into a pile of mush right in front of you, and then you had to immediately go protect the rest of your crew?

You have no effing clue.

I'm guessing almost none of your have had to do any of those things--and that's a very good thing. But these men and women are asked to do these things on a daily basis. I understand that from all of your points of view this video and things like it are "inexcusable," But front-line soldiers have to have a different point of view than yours, because unlike you they have to kill people.

I'm not saying this to justify what was done. I think it's wrong, period. However, you'd have to understand the psychological state of front-line soldiers in order to understand why they would do something like this. In order to walk up to another human being and stab them in the eye with a Ka-bar, most people would have to first believe that this person is evil. They are the scum of the earth and MUST be stopped at all costs, etc. etc.

Every front-line soldier motivates themselves differently in order to cope with the severe psychological trauma of having to kill people regularly. For many, that means going to rather extreme measures at times. For many Native Americans, it meant scalping their enemy. For others, cutting off an ear. For some, making notches on their rifle or the side of their aircraft is sufficient, which I think is more healthy.

How can we judge our soldiers for making an error in judgement while in the high of battle? Most of us will never experience that kind of rage-meets-serenity experience, when your every movement means life or death for you and your companions. When you know for a fact you could die any second if you don't make the other guy die first. We're talking adrenaline, endorphins, and an emotional state that most of us can't truly imagine. Once the battle is over, it's difficult (especially at first) to just turn that off. It's easy to think, "These bastards killed Nick and Tex and Ravi ... killing them back just isn't enough ..."

Again, I"m not condoning stuff like we see on this video, I'm explaining why stuff like this has happened throughout the entire history of warfare and will continue to do so. And I'm asking that all of us not be so quick to judge something that we have no idea about.

Thanks

 

[RonC]

njstone, great post.

maybe we should be questioning why we need reporters on the front line.

 

[usmcpurcell]

njstone, great post.

maybe we should be questioning why we need reporters on the front line.

we don't

 

[fuente~fuente]

njstone, great post.

agreed...

 

[pnoguy]

if the tides were turned, the enemy would be doing much worse to the bodies of our soldiers.

Quite true, Ron. The enemy has already done far worse.....if you consider the beheading of a live human being, or the dragging of their dead body through streets to the point of dismemberment to be worse. These things have already happened, been recorded, and been broadcast. One of the major reasons that we fight under the rules of engagement that we do, and punish behavior such as what is witnessed on this video, (I have not watched it and don't intend to), is that by adhering to the rules and codes that we do, we separate ourselves from the enemy by taking the more "virtuous" path, if you will. To put it simply, we're morally superior to them, and by engaging in behavior such as this, we chip away at that superiority. Personally, in some ways I would love to piss on the bodies of Taliban fighters, and probably much worse, especially after killing them. However, as a member of the military representing the government, people, and values of the United States of America, that is not an option. If this video doesn't cause the American viewer any kind of concern, that viewer probably doesn't have a very good understanding of what's really going on. And that's fine. If an American serving in the military thinks it's okay, they should probably find another line of work. I don't like it any better than anyone else, but that's how it is, and that's how it must be.

 

[USCG Cigar Newb]

njstone thanks alot for the post, a lot of thought there that was great and I completely agree with. Unless you are there you dont know what it is like or how it can change you and I would not judge them. I got a lot of friends in the other services that have been over there and when I talk to them about their time in the sandbox there is an immediate change in their behavior. As I said before, I dont condemn them at all, I do think that it was wrong though. Got nothing but respect for the guys over seas and just sad though how the actions of the few can affect the perception of the whole.

 

[RonC]

Quite true, Ron. The enemy has already done far worse.....if you consider the beheading of a live human being, or the dragging of their dead body through streets to the point of dismemberment to be worse. These things have already happened, been recorded, and been broadcast. One of the major reasons that we fight under the rules of engagement that we do, and punish behavior such as what is witnessed on this video, (I have not watched it and don't intend to), is that by adhering to the rules and codes that we do, we separate ourselves from the enemy by taking the more "virtuous" path, if you will. To put it simply, we're morally superior to them, and by engaging in behavior such as this, we chip away at that superiority. Personally, in some ways I would love to piss on the bodies of Taliban fighters, and probably much worse, especially after killing them. However, as a member of the military representing the government, people, and values of the United States of America, that is not an option. If this video doesn't cause the American viewer any kind of concern, that viewer probably doesn't have a very good understanding of what's really going on. And that's fine. If an American serving in the military thinks it's okay, they should probably find another line of work. I don't like it any better than anyone else, but that's how it is, and that's how it must be.

this was a very level headed and thoughtful post

 

[pnoguy]

Thanks, Ron. I had my pre-deployment ROE briefing this week.....;-).

 

[USCG Cigar Newb]

PNOGUY great post. Hadnt seen it before I posted mine and if I had wouldnt have done mine cause you summed it up nicely.

 

[njstone]

this was a very level headed and thoughtful post

Yep, and spot-on as well.

 

[Okcsmoker]

I couldn't agree with you more. That's why I refused to comment previously. My friend was put in a hot LZ at 18 years old. I couldn't even imagine what that does to a kid. What the man says is absolutely true. We have no idea what these people have to do, not because they are told to, but because they have to do it to survive. It messes you up in your head. He told me the scariest thing for him over there was not what they told him to do, but what he had to do that he wasn't told to do. I think that's an old quote, but doesn't make it less true. These people live like the scum of the earth, and at times are treated that way. Before you pass judgement at least give their situation a thought. That is all I'm saying.

I'm not saying I agree with their behavior, but remember that these soldiers were possibly serving when they saw one of their own get his head sawed off with a knife. They might have been told about the two D-Boys in Somelia. War is hell.

 

[smokinbodybuilder]

nj and pno, thanks for the insight.

 

[JPManning]

It doesn't bug me.

A. They'd do worse. (Daniel Pearl, anyone?)
2. If we're going to talk about what's worse, pissing on the dead body of an enemy or killing them in the first place....the fact that humans are killing humans seems far more disturbing than bathroom etiquette.
D. "War is hell." We should probably work harder at stopping war in general than controlling the piss habits of GIs who are trained to fight and win.

I support our military, but I wish they were filling sandbags at floods back home rather than filling bodybags in foreign wars for politicians who line them up like chess pieces.

 

[bdc30]

Just wanted to say, this is one of the more insightful point/counterpoint threads I've read on any forum in quite some time. Kudos to everyone for stating their point of view without resorting to insults or attacks on those opposing. Reason #9280 that BOTL kicks ass :thumbsup: