Postage Increase Denied!

[Alwayslit]

Great!! Now I can't stop raising those pigeons.

 

[ahbroody]

People keep talking about UPS and FedEx model. They charge more in most cases, deliver much fewer individual pieces, and take longer than the USPS often. I have experienced over 7 day delivery times for ground and 5 day delivery times for socal to norcal. It also cost more for that extremely slow service. If I am sending sticks I would never use anything but USPS because its faster and cheaper. Part of the reason this is the infrastructure of the postal system which the private companies dont have. Thats why they are profitable it seems to me. If called on to deliver mail costs would be going up a lot. I dont work for USPS, but it appears the reason they are broke has little to nothing do with the current business model and more to do with the retirement fund issue.

I cant see UPS model working for large scale residential delivery to every home in the country. More like you want your mail you come to us stand in line for ever to get your mail. Oooo and you pay more also.

Sorry to be devils advocate. I would love to see a logical explination of the flaws in the USPS model and how UPS or FedEx would be able to handle nationwide mail delivery and not raise prices greatly

 

[Clint]

rofl. Nope, after I stopped using smoke signals!

But you still have the carrier pigeons, right?

 

[Clint]

I think our president said it best:

"if you think about it, UPS and FedEx are doing just fine, right? No, they are. It's the Post Office that's always having problems."
- Barack Obama

Nice....

Surprising? No.

Obama is a very smart person, but he just pees himself when he's in front of the cameras. He loves the attention so much, that he forgets how to speak like an intelligent person.

Kinda sad.

 

[TravelingJ]

Works for me, shut em down. I never get a single piece of mail that I don't just throw away anyways. I get packages, sure, but I'd rather use FedEx for that anyways. We have all of our USPS mail sorted, 90% of it bitched out, and then the rest is FedEx'ed to me anyways.

 

[elderboy02]

I like the USPS. 44 cents to send a letter. Sat delivery. Click n ship. My mail gets to me fine because I tell my mailman I have cigars in my packages.

 

[JGD]

:thumbsup:

Between that and rent, I'm right there with you. Man, what ever happened the the 32 cent stamp? It seems like that wasn't too long ago.

 

[BesstR]

I use to work for the Postal Service and I have worked for UPS also. You do not want UPS to handle your cigars. For one they have slow service. It took three days to get a package from them. From the same company it took one day USPS. The UPS package looked like it was handled by gorillas. The USPS would be fine if they could get rid of the dead weight. They have people there that do not want to work just collect a check. That is because of the union. If they could get more workers they will be fine. They do need to stream line some but the service is still great.

 

[BesstR]

But you can not over look the prices that UPS FedEx and DHL charge. Speaking of DHL are they still in business have not seen them for awhile. One said package shipped over seas with delivery guarantee. UPS 159.00, FedEx 200.00 and USPS 49.00. So you do the math for pricing. Then we talk about subsidize Postal Service. How much has the government done this for private sector as of late. To much I say bottom line you get a tremendous service from the Postal Service. Better then any of the private companies out there. They are also unionized also do not forget that. UPS also has the largest airplane fleet out there what contracts are they after. Do not understand that one.

 

[ahbroody]

The retirement issue IS a part of a failing USPS business model that is built on overpriced unionized labor and has only escaped bankruptcy because of federal subsidizing........ I don't see why the private sector WOULDN'T be able to do just as good of a job and maintain a profit by getting rid of unionized labor. Might it take a bit longer? I dunno... maybe not if UPS, FedEx and DHL got to ALSO compete for the airline and trucking contracts that USPS gets to use exclusively (at taxpayer expense, of course, since they're continually in the red).

First though, the government has to ALLOW competition into the marketplace!

I simply have faith in the ingenuity of a profit-motivated private sector company to be able to figure out how to adequately and affordably supply First Class mail, so long as there's a demand for it!

But I have LOST faith in a government subsidized and heavily unionized company that doesn't EVER have to turn a profit because they know the government will always subsidize their losses...... out of MY pocketbook...

Great topic! :cbig:

AZ I dont want to turn this into a argument. Like I pointed out and someone who has worked for both pointed out some of the basic issues. I worked for UPS in college.

UPS and others Take longer, and cost more already. Further they have nowhere near the infrastructure to even attempt such a feet. I dont think most here have a true understanding of just how much mail the USPS moves and how quicly they do so. UPS and the others are charging more for less currently.

The machines involved the manpower involved is massive to move all the mail. I would really love someone to explain to me how these companies with nowhere near the infrastucture of the USPS that charge more already would be able to do it for less. The initial cost for these companies to even set up shop would be astronomical. I would venture in over a billion. They would need fleets of vehicles and massive amounts of automation that they dont have. Hundreds of thousands of more employees. I worked for UPS in college. people scan packages. I just really dont think those complaining understand just how much is involved in moving parcels across country and just how well USPS does it for such a low price.

Its really easy to sit back and say they suck and offer up no theory as to how to improve it because I dont think most really know or understand just how massive this machine is. The fact is I think they do it for to damn cheap and should charge more. To me this is a lot like power deregulation everyone was crying for. Yeah they sold it as we will do it better for cheaper. Now its BOHICA every month. This will be no different. Something like this has never been atempted because I think those who do know know it would fail.

Again I am no expert, but I think looking at it from a nuetral position with no axe to grind I cant see how this would ever work. The USPS was established in 1775.

 

[ciggy]

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Couldn't have said it better!!

 

[GoingPostal]

Well I hope a debate isn't the same as an argument, brother!

I see no difference with First Class mail. If the need continues to exist, private industry will invest, expand existing infrastructure and step up to supply the demand Cheers! :cbig:

Is there a need for mail? that is the question. With online bill pay, email, text messages, etc. the USPS is outdated, but there are many people who don't like using or don't have access to these services. The big problem is how does the USPS modernize while still being able to serve all it's customers? Traditional mail is a dying bussness so will private companies build infrastructure for a dying buisness?

 

[ahbroody]

I see what your saying AZ, and glad you are putting forth some idea in this discussion. My issue with the private sector and car industry argument is these were still small undertakings when started with nowhere near the obligation that any company undertaking this would assume. With 300+ million citizens and growing the undertaking would be massive again I say billion for set up and no huge profit line to recover this outlay of money unless prices are raised. They are already charging more for slower worse service on a much smaller scale. I could entertain the idea if they were as fast for the same price now, but this is far from the situation. I dont think anyone wants this. Who would. Also all major nations I can think off have government postal systems. If smaller nations then us wont attempt this I dont see us doing it. The government would never allow the postal system to be disolved anyway, lets be realistic.

Again I point to power deregulation and how huge of a disaster it is and how much more is paid now. How much more the current alternative carriers charge and how much slower they are. Besides a monumwntal outlay of cash, they would need to redesign their business model to non profit based to stand a chance. Where do you think a company would need to go to get funding to do this? Then once it fails like the airlines where do you think they will go for bailout money to keep afloat. Pay now or pay later. Your going to pay

 

[smokinghole]

I think the point AZcigarnut is trying to get across Abroody is that the USPS is subsidized by all of US. So you are paying for that mail service whether you ever even send a piece of mail through them. You pay for the USPS in your income tax plain and simple. Then when you go send something you conveniently get to pay for it all over again. Just like with corn, ethanol, milk, and countless other industries in this country. Whether you buy something or not doesn't mean you're putting money in the pockets of the producers. If the post office were not subsidized then I bet they would at least as much if not more than private shipping companies.

I don't know about you but I don't like paying for shit I'm not using/not consuming.

 

[BesstR]

Just like I do not like bailing out banks I do not use. Bailing out the car industry that I refuse to drive. I drive a Ford truck the only car maker not bailed out. Credit card companies and I only have on credit card for emergency. Why is it that when the Post Office wants to raise their rates everybody gets in a uproar. But hell gas prices go up all the time. Electricity goes up all the time natural gas goes up all the time. They go up when the demand is greater. The big oil companies can turn a multi- billion dollar profit and still raise their prices. We depend on oil that is why no body bitches. They can ruin the environment with oil spills but that is OK. I say raise the price of the stamp another penny. Go to any other country and mail something there you will have a rude of awakening.

 

[tmoney2007]

One thing I have to correct... Energy and the oil and gas prices go up and down. Not just up.

I pay less for energy now than I did 2 years ago. I pay less for gas now than I did 2 years ago. Natural has is lower now than it has been in a long time...

That's the reality of capitalism...

 

[BesstR]

That is all true but you are still paying more than you did five years ago. Every thing goes up with time take your groceries have gone up also. That is a reality in life things to go up. There might be a fluctuation in oil and gas. But think about it when does it go up. When the demand is high winter, holidays, and summer vacations. That is a reality of greed.

 

[smokinghole]

You also have to take into account many of the commodities we purchase that go up in price are also publicly traded. That means the price fluctuates.

The USPS is not publicly traded so why is it that their prices are supposed to rise now when operating costs for fuel and so forth have dropped from two years ago? It's the damn union and the non-working people sucking off the postal teet.

 

[stroke]

Works for me, shut em down. I never get a single piece of mail that I don't just throw away anyways. I get packages, sure, but I'd rather use FedEx for that anyways. We have all of our USPS mail sorted, 90% of it bitched out, and then the rest is FedEx'ed to me anyways.

Do you think this mail will stop if someone else delivers 1st Class Mail? You'll still get the stuff, it will just be delivered by someone else. Also, looking at the USPS as a "huge machine" it sounds great to just shut 'em down, but it probably does not sound very nice to any of their 596,000 employees and their families who would be left without (one of) their primary source(s) of income, one of which is my mother.

Speaking of DHL are they still in business have not seen them for awhile.

When I was in Afghanistan in 05-06 and Iraq in 07-08, to the best of my knowledge, DHL flew in all of our mail for the USPS. I may be wrong, but that’s what it looked like to me. I never saw a USPS aircraft. I'm guessing they make a decent revenue from that alone.

UPS and others Take longer, and cost more already. Further they have nowhere near the infrastructure to even attempt such a feet. I dont think most here have a true understanding of just how much mail the USPS moves and how quicly they do so. UPS and the others are charging more for less currently.
The initial cost for these companies to even set up shop would be astronomical. I would venture in over a billion. They would need fleets of vehicles and massive amounts of automation that they dont have. Hundreds of thousands of more employees.

My issue with the private sector and car industry argument is these were still small undertakings when started with nowhere near the obligation that any company undertaking this would assume. With 300+ million citizens and growing the undertaking would be massive again I say billion for set up and no huge profit line to recover this outlay of money unless prices are raised.
The government would never allow the postal system to be dissolved anyway, let’s be realistic.

My guess is they will never be "shut down". If anything, they will resort to civilian contracting. It is cheaper for the gov't to pay a contracted employee than it is to pay a gov't employee and provide the necessary benefits. This would eliminate the $5.5 billion in costs due to their prefunded future retiree program. Unfortunately, this would more than likely still result in leaving many USPS employees without a job, which is contrary to one of the current administration's "ralley cries". Many of those eployees would probably be employed by the contracted company, but they would most likely still lose many of their benefits. It's a lose-lose situation. :sadpace:

This practice of contracting has been done on a large scale in the military. In the past, military service members provided food service, transportation, security, etc. Now, civilian agencies are completing tasks which were once completed by the service members. They did not have to purchase new equipment and start from the ground up, they simply picked up where the gov't left off in food service (dining facilities) and security (facilities). In the case of the USPS, these contractors would more than likely utilize the same facilities and equipment. Worst-case scenario, the gov't vehicles or equipment they would "enherit" would be sold by auction and new vehicles or equipment will be purchased with the funds raised by selling the vehicles or equipment, as was done (to the best of my knowledge) with vehicles for transportation and security in the military.

Again I point to power deregulation and how huge of a disaster it is and how much more is paid now.

Just to back it up:

U.S power deregulation creating skepticism
“The main reason behind the effort to return to a more regulated market is price. Recent U.S. Energy Department statistics show that the cost of power in states that embraced competition has risen faster than in states that had retained traditional rate regulation.”

Just like broody said, deregulation may not be the perfect solution.

…the USPS is subsidized by all of US. So you are paying for that mail service whether you ever even send a piece of mail through them. You pay for the USPS in your income tax plain and simple. I don't know about you but I don't like paying for **** I'm not using/not consuming.

USPS News: Press Releases
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
May 8, 2001
Press Release #01-046

BACKGROUNDER
SETTING POSTAGE RATES

It is the Postal Service's mandate under law to break even over time. Each class of mail is also expected to cover its share of the costs, a requirement that causes the percentage rate adjustments to vary in different classes of mail, according the costs associated with the processing and delivery characteristics of each class. Since the Postal Service receives no tax dollars for operations and relies solely on the sale of postal products and services to cover operating costs, price adjustments are necessary to respond to changes in the cost of doing business.

Washington
Congress denied the Postal Service a deferral for its latest payment, Potter said. While the agency was able to make the payment it still runs the risk of defaulting on other financial obligations without legislative action.

It is clear to me that, although subsidized, they are required by law to support themselves and “break even over time.” This goes both ways. However, in the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act of 2006, Title II SEC 201, the USPS was authorized to “retained earnings, to maintain financial stability.” However, they are still required to maintain a positive balance. Because they were negative (like many non-gov't corporations in the US) they chose to receive the equivalent of a bailout. However, just as all other corporations that received bailouts were required to pay it back, the USPS is required to pay their funds back also.

Washington…

In July, the Postal Service proposed increasing the price of first-class postage from 44 cents to 46 cents in an attempt to compensate for decreasing revenue and declining mail volume. This was the first time the commission considered a rate increase higher than the rate of inflation, Chairman Ruth Goldway said.

Washington
Postage rates have increased twice since new regulations were enacted in 2006. The regulations require rate increases to remain below current inflations rates, Norman Sherstrom, a PRC spokesman said. Before 2006, rate increases were determined by a "break even" standard that required the rate to cover the Postal Service's costs.
Copyright © 2010, Tribune Interactive

In short, it is clear to me that, with the exception of the most recent request, the price of postage via USPS has gone up for the same reason the price of a can of green beans has gone up: inflation. Guys I’m sorry, but our dollar’s just not worth as much as it used to be. So, all items wil increase as inflation increases. I am glad their most recent request was denied because they’re clearly operating beyond their means.

However, considering the recent decision of the PRC, as well as the activity of orginzations such as the AFFORDABLE Mail Alliance which has "over 1,000 members [including] non-profits, Fortune 500 companies, small businesses, major trade associations, consumer groups and citizens" and is simlar in context to the NRA, I think the danger of unprecedented hikes in postal rates is not likely.

 

[smokinghole]

I guess it may just be semantics but subsidies come from us paying taxes. So in essence they get tax dollars just in the form of a subsidy. You surely know how federal funds are coded and colored a certain way and can only be spent in a specific manner. So collect taxes and code it in the the subsidy pool bam it's no longer tax money right?

Fact of the matter remains with the evidence you presented Stoke is that the postal workers union pushed for some really sweet pensions and so forth when times were good. The same thing happened to the teacher unions and a lot of other public sector unions, but now times is no good. So everyone that supports paying those pensions is getting raped or will be raped before too long. Then there's the problem of firing non working freeloaders because they have a union. I know you see it in the military, but its easier to let someone not do a damn thing than it is to fire them. The nonworking slacktard will just get moved around perpetually being "someone elses problem". The USPS shouldn't have to deal with and pay for that employee which makes things more expensive for everyone.

Also I suspect things are much more convoluted than it would appear to us finding something to read on the web. There has got to be back door dealings due to political interests involving the USPS. I don't trust that there are many honest people at most levels of government.

Now on a final note that is off topic. We all know the USPS is a non-govt corp. but is in a way propped up and operated through the govt. Why in the hell can't I carry a concealed weapon in the post office? I know its technically a gray area but if it's a gray area I don't carry. I'd rather be overly cautious than have my license revoked and face federal charges.