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I've seen a couple of threads lately showcasing anticipation of the U.S. moving closer to restoring relations with Cuba. Because of it would mean more access. Other conversations seem concerned about this fearing it will lead to a drop in quality control. Personally I think if they lifted the embargo tomorrow it would be years before the we would see local sales of Habanos due to copyright conflicts and FDA interference.
I'm interested in hearing what everyone's thoughts are on this. Are you hoping for a lift of the embargo or dreading it. And why.
 

StogieNinja

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This should probably go in the Habanos forum.

That being said, remember that only the brands owned by General would face copyright issues... those owned by Altadis wouldn't have the same issue and could come directly to market (Altadis has a 50% stake in Habanos SA), and FDA interference hasn't been announced yet. I'm going to bet though that the market entrance is done through new LCDHs only for a while, in order to control pricing and product flow, etc.

The ramp up to satisfy the US market I think would cause a massive decline in quality control. I read somewhere that the US represents 65% of the world's cigar market, and some predict that Habanos will grab up to 70% of the US market share once they're allowed here. Even if those numbers are a bit exaggerated, that's a huge amount of production increase. I personally think it wise to stock up now, before that happens, and hope your stock lasts long enough to get through the inevitable craziness.

My personally, I'm perfectly happy with the status quo (as regards cigars). Right now I have very easy access to high quality product at comparatively low prices, with very low risk. Once the embargo lifts, all bets are off.
 

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i agree with Derek on his summation. Once Ccs are allowed to be sold in the U.S., 3 things are going to happen.

1. Lawsuits will be filed regarding trademarks issues, not only by current owners, but by the original owners of the trademark, which were forced to flee Cuba.

2. I believe the price of all cigars will go up, as a result of increased demand. The United States is currently the number one importer of Ccs in the U.S. Yep, I said that. It may be illegal, but they still come into the U.S. Very easily.

3. The FDA and quality control are huge factors. To keep up with the increase, Cuba will make shortcuts to keep up with the demand, which will cause construction issues. Also the FDA will make the manufacturers adhere to the standards set for NC companies.

Derek was spot on when he said, best to start stocking up now imho.

And I moved the thread to the Habanos section.
 
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Once the initial surge in demand is dealt with and absorbed, having all cigars legal in the US is by far the best outcome in the long run for consumers who have to play a shady, sometimes expensive game today, with a vigorous fakes market having erupted as a consequence.

I also recall an interview Pete Johnson gave a couple years ago in which he imagined a world in which Cuban tobacco was made available to blenders much more freely, and legally. Imagine what our best blenders could do with that material, either making their own Havana puros, or in blends.

We should suck up any short-term turbulence because the future can be far, far better than the shady and limited status quo.
 
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Once the initial surge in demand is dealt with and absorbed, having all cigars legal in the US is by far the best outcome in the long run for consumers who have to play a shady, sometimes expensive game today, with a vigorous fakes market having erupted as a consequence.

I also recall an interview Pete Johnson gave a couple years ago in which he imagined a world in which Cuban tobacco was made available to blenders much more freely, and legally. Imagine what our best blenders could do with that material, either making their own Havana puros, or in blends.

We should suck up any short-term turbulence because the future can be far, far better than the shady and limited status quo.
I question whether or not Cuba will allow any bulk leaf to be exported at all. It would quite intriguing to see a return of "Clear Havanas."
 
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I question whether or not Cuba will allow any bulk leaf to be exported at all. It would quite intriguing to see a return of "Clear Havanas."
...Maybe not initially, but if the market is there for it, they'll probably eventually allow it. Whatever the case: more cigar creation possibilities are open with the embargo eliminated, IMO.
 
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I think its a long ways out yet. Especially if a Republican president is elected. I agree that quality will plummet. The quality is already hit or miss.
As Angry Bill said, there are estimates that a very large percentage of Cuban cigars already find their way into the US. No question that quantities would increase (perhaps at the expense of exports to other markets around the world -- and perhaps at the expense of quality, for some period of time), but a chunk of market demand is already being met.
 
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i agree with Derek on his summation. Once Ccs are allowed to be sold in the U.S., 3 things are going to happen.

1. Lawsuits will be filed regarding trademarks issues, not only by current owners, but by the original owners of the trademark, which were forced to flee Cuba.

2. I believe the price of all cigars will go up, as a result of increased demand. The United States is currently the number one importer of Ccs in the U.S. Yep, I said that. It may be illegal, but they still come into the U.S. Very easily.

3. The FDA and quality control are huge factors. To keep up with the increase, Cuba will make shortcuts to keep up with the demand, which will cause construction issues. Also the FDA will make the manufacturers adhere to the standards set for NC companies.

Derek was spot on when he said, best to start stocking up now imho.

And I moved the thread to the Habanos section.
Thanks I was going to put it in the Habanos section but it looked like that was for reviews only. Great perspective guys. I am seeing a trend here.
 
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The general quality of CCs will go down. For years. This is bad. But those on this board still know how to get the better stuff.

Initial US demand will be *very* high for CCs. For a few months. Until it leaves the news and all the non cigar smokers have had their "Cuban." Then it will abate. But there will be a high demand for CCs forever in the US. It will never match levels prior to the embargo though, because NC quality is *so* good now. Much more competition. This is good!

In response to the new demand for CCs, NC prices will need to fall -- especially those priced competitively with CCs. This is good!

Our packages will (presumably) stop getting stolen by you know who. This is good!

I will be able to walk into a LCDH in Los Angeles and browse boxes and singles (at a ridiculous price). This is bad. For my wallet.
 
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Only Congress has the power to end the embargo so that's not going to happen until the end of Jan 2017, at the earliest, because Obama. Once it is lifted, and it probably will be, then the General Cigar lawsuits will commence. That will take years, so you won't be seeing those marcas on the shelves of your local B&M anytime soon. My guess is LCDH shops will open up first.

But for me the bigger question is who in their right mind would try to start up a new non-Cuban cigar business with the threat of the end of the embargo looming over them?
 
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The general quality of CCs will go down. For years. This is bad. But those on this board still know how to get the better stuff.

Initial US demand will be *very* high for CCs. For a few months. Until it leaves the news and all the non cigar smokers have had their "Cuban." Then it will abate. But there will be a high demand for CCs forever in the US. It will never match levels prior to the embargo though, because NC quality is *so* good now. Much more competition. This is good!

In response to the new demand for CCs, NC prices will need to fall -- especially those priced competitively with CCs. This is good!

Our packages will (presumably) stop getting stolen by you know who. This is good!

I will be able to walk into a LCDH in Los Angeles and browse boxes and singles (at a ridiculous price). This is bad. For my wallet.
I think your spot on with your perspective. The NC cigars will need to work with smaller margins. Some may go out of business if they can't remain profitable at the prices they will need to be at to be competitive.
 
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Only Congress has the power to end the embargo so that's not going to happen until the end of Jan 2017, at the earliest, because Obama. Once it is lifted, and it probably will be, then the General Cigar lawsuits will commence. That will take years, so you won't be seeing those marcas on the shelves of your local B&M anytime soon. My guess is LCDH shops will open up first.

But for me the bigger question is who in their right mind would try to start up a new non-Cuban cigar business with the threat of the end of the embargo looming over them?
I think I replied to you in my thread on this -- but yes the Congress needs to end the embargo, but the Prez can limit it himself to the point of irrelevance.
 
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I think your spot on with your perspective. The NC cigars will need to work with smaller margins. Some may go out of business if they can't remain profitable at the prices they will need to be at to be competitive.
There are, simply put, too many really small boutique brands out there right now, that will go away once the CCs flood in. This is also good. Not everyone and his brother needs to put his name on a cigar, and so many of them are garbage. The ones that are not? Will survivie and thrive because of places like BOTL that get people to try them and spout off about how good they are. A good cigar doesn't stay a secret for long around here, and neither does a bad one ;)
 

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Ha, ha, ha! Man, I love this kind of speculation. We've all been talking and thinking about this since things changed so drastically back in December. I've heard so many interesting theories and ideas, it's just awesome. I've been doing a lot of research and reading tremendous amounts of info in magazines and newspapers on this very subject. I've also had discussions with B&M owners in Florida and California, very knowledgeable people. What amazes me is that everyone has their own interesting little idea and theory on how this thing will go down. So here's mine.

Firstly, there is the whole copyright issue which is a rather large one considering how deeply invested General Cigar has been in these brands. Like @Senor Perfecto indicated, Altadis owns a 50-percent stake in Cubatabaco, and the two entities form Habanos S.A. Altadis is owned by Imperial Tobacco, one of the world's largest tobacco conglomerates. General Cigar is owned by the other massive conglomerate, Swedish Match. So basically, these two heavyweights will meet in the ring and figure out how best to settle copyright infringement issues. The referee in this bout will be the Federal Court System, perhaps even the Supreme Court.

The biggest issue to settling this dispute will be to determine who holds the original rights to the brands. Cubatabaco (the state-run tabacco company started by Fidel Castro after the revolution) clearly holds the rights to the tobacco and therefore the blends of these brands. But I don't think Cubatabaco/Altadis/Imperial Tobacco can lay claim to the brands themselves, because the brands were the intellectual property of the pre-revolution originators. When Castro reclaimed their property in defense of the state and exiled them, they went to other regions to manufacture their brands using, of course, different blends of tobacco: Dominican, Nicaraguan, and Honduran. However, they still retained the original rights to the brand. Years later, the owners sold their brands to General Cigar and here we are today.

So technically speaking, General Cigar holds the rights to the original brands, but Habanos S.A. holds the rights to the original blends. And that's where things will get tricky. However, Altadis does hold the rights to both brand and blends of Montecristo, Romeo y Julietta, and Por Larranaga, so there is absolutely no conflict of interest there. When the embargo has been lifted, I think we will see those brands in local B&Ms almost immediately, right alongside their Dominican counterparts.

Then there is the issue of General Cigar's Cohiba brand, which only shares the name with its Cuban counterpart. Cohiba is a post-revolutionary brand which Fidel Castro originated. It was his own personal brand used for government officials and diplomats. Because of its worldwide appeal, GC shamelessly ripped-off the brand-name and made an inferior Dominican version. The Supreme Court has already shot down GC's attempt to retain its copyright of the brand. So I think Habanos S.A.'s Cohiba will prevail, and GC/Swedish Match will be forced to cease production and distribution under the Cohiba name. In the face of a lawsuit, I think GC will discontinue its Cohiba brand, and we will see Cuban Cohibas on store shelves not long after the Embargo goes away. But they will be heavily taxed and probably twice the price they are now.

Finally, the possibility that really struck me as quite original and no one has yet mentioned it: Habanos S.A. will make NEW BRANDS specifically for the U.S. MARKET!!!! This will completely undermine GC/Swedish Match if no agreement can be reached. There is nothing stopping Habanos S.A. from creating absolutely brand-new brands. In fact, some even speculate that the newly re-branded Vagueros (which shares aboslutely no similarities to the classic pre-revolutionary brands) is a prototype for the American market. Yes, fellahs, Habanos S.A. is now in the process of developing new brands for the American market, just in the event General Cigar tries to protect itself in court and delay Habanos S.A. from competing in the U.S. consumer market. General Cigar has no claim to the blends. Hypothetically speaking, Habanos S.A. will still blend a Ramon Allones Specailly Selected, but simply re-brand that blend for the American market. General Cigar cannot fight that.

As far as the other concerns. Congress must lift the Embargo, but we have the best politicians money can buy. So no problem there. But the taxation will be unreal. Look to Canada and U.K. to find out what prices will be here. The reason we enjoy low prices now is because we buy them from DUTY-FREE regions in Hong Kong and Switzerland.

As far as seeing Ramon Allones, Bolivar, La Gloria Cubana, Hoyo de Monterrey, Partagas, Punch, Sancho Panza from Habanos S.A. on U.S. shelves any time soon, not going to happen. General Cigar, which owns the original rights of those brands, will fight to the death to prevent Habanos S.A. from distributing those blends here. Unless they reach a 'mutually amicable' agreement, it just won't happen. It would sink General Cigar. So that will most likely be a long and drawn-out contest in Federal Court with 100s of judgements and appeals. Ultimately, General Cigar should win--they own the rights to the original brands, not Cubatobaco (Castro's despotic tobacco company) which siezed those companies during the revolution and forced the original owners in duress to forfeit their rights of ownership. Anything performed under duress--according to our legal system--is usually illegal. By the way, that case will be a legendary legal battle, if I had to guess.

Lastly, all in a nutshell, Cuban cigars will arrive here quickly once the Embargo has been lifted. Altadis brands will land in Tampa probably on the next business day and will be in stores that week, just like their Dominican counterparts. After a little legal wrangling, I think GC's Cohiba will be forced to discontinue or be re-branded, and we will see the Cuban version here shortly thereafter. As far as the core GC brands are concerned, we will never see those in the U.S. ever. But Habanos S.A. will simply rebrand those blends for the U.S. market: it won't have a Ramon Allones band on it, but the blend will taste the same.

Sorry for the novel, but that's my 2 cents.
 
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Ha, ha, ha! Man, I love this kind of speculation. We've all been talking and thinking about this since things changed so drastically back in December. I've heard so many interesting theories and ideas, it's just awesome. I've been doing a lot of research and reading tremendous amounts of info in magazines and newspapers on this very subject. I've also had discussions with B&M owners in Florida and California, very knowledgeable people. What amazes me is that everyone has their own interesting little idea and theory on how this thing will go down. So here's mine.

Firstly, there is the whole copyright issue which is a rather large one considering how deeply invested General Cigar has been in these brands. Like @Senor Perfecto indicated, Altadis owns a 50-percent stake in Cubatabaco, and the two entities form Habanos S.A. Altadis is owned by Imperial Tobacco, one of the world's largest tobacco conglomerates. General Cigar is owned by the other massive conglomerate, Swedish Match. So basically, these two heavyweights will meet in the ring and figure out how best to settle copyright infringement issues. The referee in this bout will the Federal Court System, perhaps even the Supreme Court.

The biggest issue to settling this dispute will be to determine who holds the original rights to the brands. Cubatabaco (the state-run tabacco company started by Fidel Castro after the revolution) clearly holds the rights to the tobacco and therefore the blends of these brands. But I don't think Cubatabaco/Altadis/Imperial Tobacco can lay claim to the brands themselves, because the brands were the intellectual property of the pre-revolution originators. When Castro reclaimed their property in defense of the state and exiled them, they went to other regions to manufacture their brands using, of course, different blends of tobacco: Dominican, Nicaraguan, and Honduran. However, they still retained the original rights to the brand. Years later, the owners sold their brands to Genral Cigar and here we are today.

So technically speaking, General Cigar holds the rights to the original brands, but Habanos S.A. holds the rights to the original blends. And that's where things will get tricky. However, Altadis does hold the rights to both brand and blends of Montecristo, Romeo y Juliette, and Por Larranaga, so there is absolutely no conflict of interest there. When the embargo is lifted, I think we will see those to brands in local B&Ms almost immediately, right alongside their Dominican counterparts.

Then there is the issue of General Cigar's Cohiba brand, which only shares the name with it's Cuban counterpart. Cohiba is a post-revolutionary brand which Fidel Castro originated. It was his own personal brand used for government officials and diplomats. Because of its worldwide appeal, GC shamelessly ripped-off the brand name and made an inferior Dominican version. The Supreme Court has already shot down GC's attempt to retain its copyright of the brand. So I think Habanos S.A.'s Cohiba will prevail, and GC/Swedish Match will be forced to cease production and distribution under the Cohiba name. In the face of a lawsuit, I think GC will discontinue its Cohiba brand and we will see Cuban Cohibas on store shelves not long after the Embargo goes away. But they will be heavily taxed and probably twice the price they are now.

Finally, the possibility that really struck me as quite original and no one has yet mentioned it: Habanos S.A. will make NEW BRANDS specifically for the U.S. MARKET!!!! This will completely undermine GC/Swedish Match if no agreement is reached. There is nothing stopping Habanos S.A. from creating absolutely brand-new brands. In fact, some even speculate that the newly re-branded Vagueros (which shares aboslutely no similarities to the classic pre-revolutionary brands) is a prototype for the American market. Yes, fellahs, Habanos S.A. is now in the process of developing new brands for the American market, just in the event General Cigar tries to protect itself in court and delay Habanos S.A. from competing in the U.S. consumer market. General Cigar has no claim to the blends. Hypothetically speaking, Habanos S.A. will still blend a Ramon Allones Specailly Selected, but simply re-brand that blend for the American market. General Cigar cannot fight that.

As far as the other concerns. Congress must lift the Embargo, but we have the best politicians money can buy. So no problem there. But the taxation will be unreal. Look to Canada and U.K. to find out what prices will be here. The reason we enjoy low prices now is because we buy them from the DUTY-FREE regions in Hong Kong and Switzerland.

As far as seeing Ramon Allones, Bolivar, La Gloria Cubana, Hoyo de Monterrey, Partagas, Punch, Sancho Panza from Habanos S.A. on U.S. shelves any time soon, not going to happen. General Cigar, which owns the original rights of those brands, will fight to the death to prevent Habanos S.A. from distributing those blends here. Unless they reach a 'mutually amicable' agreement, it just won't happen. It would sink General Cigar. So that will most likely be a long and drawn-out contest in Federal Court with 100s of judgements and appeals. Ultimately, General Cigar should win--they own the rights to the original brands, not Cubatobaco (Castro's despotic tobacco company) which siezed those companies during the revolution and forced the original owners in duress to forfeit their rights of ownership. Anything performed under duress--according to our legal system--is usually illegal. By the way, that case will be a legendary legal battle, if I had to guess.

Lastly, all in a nutshell, Cuban cigars will arrive here quickly once the Embargo has lifted. Altadis brands will land in Tampa probably on the next business day and will be in stores that week, just like their Dominican counterparts. After a little legal wrangling, I think GC's Cohiba will be forced to discontinue or be re-branded, and we will see the Cuban version here shortly thereafter. As far as the core GC's brands, we will never see those in the U.S. ever. But Habanos S.A. will simply rebrand those blends for the U.S. market: it won't have a Ramon Allones band on it, but the blend will taste the same.

Sorry for the novel, but that's my 2 cents.
Great perspective.
 
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If I didn't spend all my money on Crowned Heads releases (Paniolo, Las Calaveras, Angel's Anvil, etc), I'd be stocking up on Cubans right now. I bought a few boxes earlier in the year, but not nearly enough to last through the turmoil that's sure to follow an end to the embargo.

That said, I'm none to worried. If I was stuck only smoking Tatuaje, Padron, Fuente, Crowned Heads, etc for the rest of my days, I'd be Ok. Plus, New stuff from @ssaka and @nickanick. It's a great time to be smoking NC cigars!
 
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