Gouger on OLH and EBay

[BrittS88]

It seems like a lot of people are saying that because this is a HTF that there is no problem in selling it at high prices. But then others are saying that because it's a certain kind of HTF and not another kind that that's not right. Well my two cents is if it's HTF its HTF. If you wanna sell it for a ton then sell it for a ton. If someone wants to pay that or doesn't bother looking around for a better price so be it. It's not anyone else's responsibility but the buyers to look a around and decide what they are willing to pay for something. If you go to shell for gas and it's 3.80 a gallon but you look across the street at chevron and it's 3.09 that's your choice to go buy it cheaper or stay where you are and pay more. I guess what I'm saying is I understand where everyone is coming from. All the points stated make sense on some level, but in the end it comes down to buy it or don't, and move on.

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[mdwest]

You got it right! Nothing better than getting my hands on them super htf cigars just so I can quickly turn around and double my money on my friends here in the community.

I think this is where you are off... they are not doubling their money on their friends.. they are doubling their money on strangers.. they are engaging in a business transaction.. its a shady one (albeit perfectly legal).. that I wont participate in... but I also dont buy used cars from "tote the note" car lots.. dont by viagra from internet pharmacies in china.. etc..

I dont let it piss me off every time I pass a used car lot on the side of the road though.. there are people that are willing to engage in this type of work.. and there are people more than willing to make purchases from them... thats their business.. Im not going to loose any sleep over it...

The best part is it makes these htf cigars harder and harder to find so you know what that means!!! More and more money we can get out of our "brothers"!!! (And by brothers I mean people that we refer to as friends unless we are talking business...then they are just buyers who have deep pockets and luckily for us they have not been able to find that cigar box they were dying for!)

Again, I dont think the normal purchaser of products way above MSRP are the people we commonly refer to as "brothers".. I think your second description is more accurate.. its just a "buyer" that is willing to pay for convenience.. he didnt have to go hunt, get on a list, make a dozen calls, etc.. and he is willing to pay stupid prices for someone else to do it for him...

No different than going into the local exxon tiger mart to buy a $5 gallon of milk.. instead of going to the grocery store and paying $3 for it... the tiger mart is more convenient.. so you pay the price..

Someone said it earlier this month on another board..:gougers will never understand why people think they are douchebags. I'll spell it out...people who gouge take advantage of people who were less fortunate in the hunt for cigars that we are all looking for. Make that precious money but don't be too shocked when the community turns it back to you.

I disagree.. I think they understand just fine... I just dont think they care.. again.. to them.. its just business... no different than the greasy used car salesman looking for the young, dumb, uneducated buyer that they can gouge the shit out of at the tote-the-note lot..

they know they have a reputation for being deuchebags..

they dont care..

otherwise they wouldnt engage in that type of business...




End sum for me is I dont buy above MSRP.. hell.. most of the time I dont buy at MSRP.. I look for deals on BOTL.. I check out the "clearance" pages on famous, CI, etc.. I buy from the "sale" section at my local B&M, etc.. I probably buy less than 20% of my sticks at full MSRP.. and thats only when I really want something.. or I know I wont have access to something again for a long time, etc..

But.. I dont let it piss me off when someone else does...

what they do with their time, and their money is their business..

I dont get mad at guys that scalp tickets to the superbowl for 5x the purchase price..

at the end of the day.. both the buyer and the seller are grown ups.. responsible for their own decisions... if one wants to live his life as a deuchebag.. and the other wants to pay a bazillion times too much for an item just because he can.. thats their business...

 

[MoJo]

so there is a difference between supply and demand with a free market and taking advantage of people or abusing access to HTFs that one might have. There is a reason laws were made against monopolies in this so called "free market" here, consumers have rights too. I'm not going to get into a debate over that, but for some reason people seem to forget about that when the topic of gouging comes up, as it always does.

I am glad places like OLH exist because I would not be able to have obtained certain things without it, and have had to pay a markup because of it. It sucks, but the only reason I have been able to try certain things was because I was willing to pay an extra 10, 20, etc. bucks or so for it. If it was sold at msrp I would have never had a chance.

That all being said, people who use limited quantities of something to take advantage of people, force price inflation, rip people off, etc. etc. I dislike. There is a big difference between gougers/flippers and people who are selling something that now has a value over the original msrp.

 

[mdwest]

There is a reason laws were made against monopolies in this so called "free market" here, consumers have rights too.

I think I agree with everything you said (hard to completely get the message sometimes on the internet..)..

except for maybe the monopoly comment.. (i actually might agree with that too.. and just misread it?)....

a single business entity.. whether a shop, or an individual, that doesnt control any real measure of the market space.. is not a monopoly..

what these people are doing is not illegal...

immoral... yup.... unethical... probably...

illegal... nope...

That all being said, people who use limited quantities of something to take advantage of people, force price inflation, rip people off, etc. etc. I dislike.

I agree... I dont like them.. and I wont do business with them...

but that doesnt mean what they are doing doesnt appeal to others... and doesnt have a place in the market...


Ive got enough government and busy body assed people in my life trying to tell me where to go, what to do, when to do it, how to do it, and whats acceptable (to them)...

I dont appreciate others telling me that their position in life is the only "right" one.. and that if I dont conform to their version of "right" then I must be wrong... when people attempt to confront me about who/what/where/why/when the person I am.. it usually ends up being a pretty negative experience for them.... I expect others to leave me to live my life the way I choose to live it (to include being a cigar smoker).. as long as what I am doing isnt illegal or doing them personal harm... I expect them to butt out..

As a result.. I do my best not to define the morals, ethics, cultural acceptability, etc... of others.. If someone wants to live the life of a deuche... thats their business.. hell.. maybe they enjoy it... I dont have to participate.. or be a part of it.... so why do I care?

 

[ar2381]

Price gouging is not an issue to me. The bigger issue I have is that some B&Ms will sell a whole box of Dirty Rats to a customer, which prevents other customers from getting a chance to buy any when a store might only get a few boxes. With LE cigars, IMO B&Ms should try to spread the wealth around, and put stick limits. I understand the need to show loyalty to your best customers, but you risk alienating others. I know a lot of stores don't allow people to buy whole boxes, which is a good step in the right direction.

 

[mdwest]

Price gouging is not an issue to me. The bigger issue I have is that some B&Ms will sell a whole box of Dirty Rats to a customer, which prevents other customers from getting a chance to buy any when a store might only get a few boxes. With LE cigars, IMO B&Ms should try to spread the wealth around, and put stick limits. I understand the need to show loyalty to your best customers, but you risk alienating others. I know a lot of stores don't allow people to buy whole boxes, which is a good step in the right direction.

Who are we to tell a business owner how to run his business?

As long as he isnt violating any sort of agreement he has with his supplier (DE in this case).. what has he done wrong?

I dont like the way wal-mart does business... so I rarely set foot in one..

If you dont like the B&M's business practices... dont shop there.. go somewhere else...

One of three things will happen....

either the B&M owner will respond to the change in the market (if everyone stops shopping there).. and will start breaking up boxes..

or he wont respond to the market change.. will continue to loose revenue.. and will eventually go away (thereby allowing other shops more dirty rats)...

or youll find that you are the one with the wrong idea.. and that more consumers support his business practice.. he will continue down the same path, grow his sales, etc... and wont care that he lost your business..

at the end of the day.. this is his choice to make.. he took the risk.. he invested the money.. he opened a shop.. and he is responsible for knowing and understanding his market space and taking care of his customers..

why is he "wrong" for not spreading the wealth and giving you more opportunities for rats? whats his motivation for changing the way he does business?

 

[smokemifugotem]

Lol I think Dave is right...we (for the most part) agree with each other but saying it all differently. I get why people do it and the ideals around supply and demand...it happens. But the big key is that all of these people are fucktards!

 

[shadowcam]

I dont appreciate others telling me that their position in life is the only "right" one.. and that if I dont conform to their version of "right" then I must be wrong... when people attempt to confront me about who/what/where/why/when the person I am.. it usually ends up being a pretty negative experience for them.... I expect others to leave me to live my life the way I choose to live it (to include being a cigar smoker).. as long as what I am doing isnt illegal or doing them personal harm... I expect them to butt out..

As a result.. I do my best not to define the morals, ethics, cultural acceptability, etc... of others.. If someone wants to live the life of a deuche... thats their business.. hell.. maybe they enjoy it... I dont have to participate.. or be a part of it.... so why do I care?

Nicely put. You got my respect brother.

 

[mdwest]

all of these people are fucktards!

no doubt!

 

[Carpenter69]

I certainly didn't mean to offend any rapists. I was just venting about a certain guy who somehow manages to always find an abundance of HTF cigars. He makes a point of reveling in the fact that he's robbing people. When I first got into cigars I chased every new release like it was my job. Now I know what I like and it's readily available. I have a great B&M near me that gets everything, if I see something HTF I buy it and sell it at my cost plus shipping. To me that's what makes this hobby great, being able to help someone else out.

 

[mwlabel]

I certainly didn't mean to offend any rapists.

Pretty sure this is aimed at me, so...

Having a loved one who was sexually assaulted, i.e. raped, I am effing livid at your choice of words. To diminish their experience - total destruction of safety, confidence, and identity- because you put it on the same level as people selling items over MSRP is despicable, and you should be ashamed.

The only other words I have for you are not permitted on this forum.

 

[pbibby]

I certainly didn't mean to offend any rapists..

Don't think that's what he meant.....

 

[mdwest]

I was just venting about a certain guy who somehow manages to always find an abundance of HTF cigars.

This doesnt happen by accident though.. he is working for this.. he either has several serious B&M hook ups.. or he is calling NUMEROUS shops.. getting on NUMEROUS lists.. staying on top of release dates... keeps plenty of cash on hand and/or credit card availability.. etc... (or a combo of all of the above)... these sticks arent just falling into his lap because he is lucky.. he is working the market.. and taking risk (putting cash out there to make large scale purchases... in hopes that there will be enough people willing to pay stupid high prices to make it worth his effort.. etc..)..

He makes a point of reveling in the fact that he's robbing people.

because he is a deuchebag... totally understand this getting under peoples skins.... but.. its his right to be a deuchebag... just like its my right not to associate with him (because he is a deuchebag...)..

When I first got into cigars I chased every new release like it was my job. Now I know what I like and it's readily available. I have a great B&M near me that gets everything, if I see something HTF I buy it and sell it at my cost plus shipping. To me that's what makes this hobby great, being able to help someone else out.

Perfect example of how the free market works...

You have the opportunity to do business with other people.. and have chosen to do so.. its not worth it to you to pay high prices for convenience.. and, as an educated customer, you know how to find other options that better suit your needs..

Hopefully more people will figure this out.. stop buying from the deuchebag.. and he will "go out of business" (sadly, this will likely never happen though.. there will always be space for guys like this.. as long as there are uneducated customers (sucker born every minute).. or people are willing to exchange cash for convenience.. )...

 

[remy swagger]

Wow, this is getting crazy

I certainly didn't mean to offend any rapists.

Pretty sure this is aimed at me, so...

Having a loved one who was sexually assaulted, i.e. raped, I am effing livid at your choice of words. To diminish their experience - total destruction of safety, confidence, and identity- because you put it on the same level as people selling items over MSRP is despicable, and you should be ashamed.

The only other words I have for you are not permitted on this forum.

 

[pbibby]

Also, I think the guy in question here is a well known scammer/gouger /scumbag/etc..
If you don't want to buy at those prices /from him, then don't.

 

[Scroni]

just to throw some information out there for everyone. the UF-4's were sold in bundles of 10 for 150, and singles up to 5 only for 16 a piece. in order to buy a bundle, you had to buy a box of something else (any regular production DE stuff). i did see people buying multiple bundles, but they had to buy a box with each of them (i don't think i saw anyone buy more than 5 singles either). if they wouldn't have done the box with purchase, i would have gladly picked up as many bundles as i could to try and spread them around for everyone.

 

[ATL]

I certainly didn't mean to offend any rapists. I was just venting about a certain guy who somehow manages to always find an abundance of HTF cigars. He makes a point of reveling in the fact that he's robbing people. When I first got into cigars I chased every new release like it was my job. Now I know what I like and it's readily available. I have a great B&M near me that gets everything, if I see something HTF I buy it and sell it at my cost plus shipping. To me that's what makes this hobby great, being able to help someone else out.

Don't worry, douchebags are not easily offended. They have the right to do it and I have the right to call them on it. I have a gift certificate to a large online retailer. I messaged their rep to this forum and inquired if they would be receiving any of seasonal LE that I was looking to buy. He said yes, to call when they start to hit. I did, but the cigars in question are not available for sell over the phone or on their site. They are, all of their allotment, available on their auction site, along with several other HTF items, where you can compete and pay well over retail and you are not allowed to use gift certificates or discount codes. The move is quite smart on their part, but not a desirable business practice in my opinion.

 

[MoJo]

Dave, I think we were making similar points, I just didn't do a good job articulating mine and the monopoly thing was a bad example (wasn't trying to say gougers are monopolies)

However, we do not have a 100% true free market. and one of the key phrase in your last post was "educated consumer".

Also, if someone is taking advantage of people or just trying to take advantage of people, illegal or not, then I have a right to speak up or do something about it. Just like you said, no one "right" way. You can ignore it and move on or you can try to make a change for the better and educate some of the people who might not be an educated consumer or you can try to get the person who is taking advantage to stop or do one of the many other options.

I also would never try to force someone to live a certain way or act a certain way or do certain things because I feel it is the right way and hope that is not how you are interpreting what I am saying.

 

[mdwest]

Dave, I think we were making similar points, I just didn't do a good job articulating mine and the monopoly thing was a bad example (wasn't trying to say gougers are monopolies)

However, we do not have a 100% true free market. and one of the key phrase in your last post was "educated consumer".

Also, if someone is taking advantage of people or just trying to take advantage of people, illegal or not, then I have a right to speak up or do something about it. Just like you said, no one "right" way. You can ignore it and move on or you can try to make a change for the better and educate some of the people who might not be an educated consumer or you can try to get the person who is taking advantage to stop or do one of the many other options.

I also would never try to force someone to live a certain way or act a certain way or do certain things because I feel it is the right way and hope that is not how you are interpreting what I am saying.

I think its that internet thingy... making communications difficult lol..

I think we are actually probably in total agreement with each other.. just not able to write the correct words to make it look that way..

you are absolutely correct about the true free market...

we're closer than many/most places on the globe.. but we are far from the text book definition..

also.. never thought you were a proponent of forcing a lifestyle.. (hopefully my comment didnt appear directed that way.. damn internet thingy!!!!)... if anything, based on your posts on BOTL.. my impression is you feel exactly the opposite..

 

[xFreebirdx]

fools and their money are easily separated............