Gouger on OLH and EBay

[CalixtoLopez]

Edit: I noticed the title of this thread was edited, so I removed my criticism of the use of a certain word on there.

In the cigar community we all beat the drum of keeping our freedom and rights, which are under attack constantly. Same applies to those who wish to sell their property for whatever price they feel is attainable. They don't owe us anything, nor do we have to do business with them.

I've received criticism from customers before over my choice to sell complete boxes of HTF cigars to select people. It's necessary sometimes to reward people for their business throughout the year but I would rather as many people smoke these HTF cigars as possible. I will sell boxes but I look at it as a necessary evil, which makes it sting more when people call me out for it.

 

[StogieNinja]

As a member of this community, one who has benefitted from members here hooking me up, I owe it back to the members of this community to do the same, and I do at every opportunity. If I've hooked you up because you're a member of this community, you owe it to the brotherhood to pay it forward as well.

However, if those guys are not part of the community of brothers, they have no similar obligation to us.

 

[Clint]

Just a note that I do agree that the practice of buying up large quantities of limited run boxes with the sole intent of immediately turning a large profit is questionable, but I think it does fall under the whole supply and demand realm, and it just "is what it is".
It appears that this guy on OLH may have unfairly obtained a large lot, and selling right away at high prices is questionable...I do understand that this instance is raising eyebrows.

 

[thejavaman]

This is a good thread. The issue comes up a lot. I can see both sides. Good discussion & points Dave/John.

 

[CanIGetAHolla]

I know who you're talking about over at OLH and I see him getting ripped in the Battle Zone. Personally, I don't care how he prices his cigars. The people buying from him are to blame if they're doubling or tripling his money. Noobs need to educate themselves about these HTFs and their scarcity/pricing before opening their wallets. I don't like how he gloats about getting ridiculous prices from noobs, though, and have added him to my "Do Not Buy From" list.

 

[Splatt]

I think you have to separate this debate into 2 different groups, luxury items/hobbies and necessities for life.

We are talking cigars here. A luxury hobby and/or collectible. These things are not a necessity of life in any way. Coming from this point, I see absolutely nothing wrong with attempting to sell a collectible, limited quantity item for as much as one can find a buyer for. I don't think you can "take advantage of people" or "force inflation" on luxury items(no offense meant MoJo, just your post was the one above this at the time and easiest to quote). Look at art, wine, cars and any other expensive hobbies. Is a famous, 1 of a kind piece of art really worth 10 million bucks? It is if someone is willing to pay that much in order to enjoy it as part of their own collection. 1 cigar has no real value over another unless you as the buyer perceive it to be so. A 50 cent yardgar is worth that much because that is the price the seller has found he can sell his product at. A $40 fuente is priced as such because we, the collectors and people that enjoy the cigars, are willing to pay that price. Just yesterday I had someone hunt me down online for a limited edition paintball gun that I own and instantly offered me $300 over what I paid for it several years ago. These guns do not "get better with age" like cigars can, yet a buyer is totally willing to pay way more than what even I perceived as its monetary value because there are so few in existence. However, even with the large amount of profit I could potentially make with this it would take more than double this amount of profit for me to sell the gun because it also holds sentimental value TO ME.

So buy the luxuries you want and sell the same for what ever buyers are willing to pay, because this is not fresh water or nourishment we are talking about here, it is simply a hobby we all immensely enjoy.

 

[Master Shake]

As a member of this community, one who has benefitted from members here hooking me up, I owe it back to the members of this community to do the same, and I do at every opportunity. If I've hooked you up because you're a member of this community, you owe it to the brotherhood to pay it forward as well.

However, if those guys are not part of the community of brothers, they have no similar obligation to us.

I agree with that statement totally. Furthermore, we're bitching about people on OLH for crying out loud. There isn't a community there. More gougers, scammers, purveyors of fakes, and rip of artists come from there then any where else in the cigar community. And anyone expects that place to suddenly have morals and appreciate a brotherhood? If this happened on here I could understand. This place aims to be a community and gouging is forbidden here. It isn't that way on OLH. Wade doesn't give 2 shits. Look how well TL cleaned up over there.

Having said all that there is a place for OLH and I have picked up more than one steal there in my day.

 

[fsfrancis]

Capitalism works. Supply and Demand work. High supply = low price, Low Supply = high price. Hooking a brother up by selling him some HTF sticks at no profit works too. Gouging is a myth. If you don't want to pay it, then don't buy it. If you have HTF sticks, and you price them too low, then one guy will buy them all. If you price them for what the market will bare then more people will get sticks, as simple as that. It seems crazy that here in the good ole USA we have folks questioning the foundation of our nation, which is capitalism. Making a product available wouldn't happen without profit. Who's going to go out of their way to make something if they don't get something out of it? (profit) No one, or very few = no supply or scarcity. If you believe otherwise, you need to be re-educated comrade!

 

[Clint]

Capitalism works. Supply and Demand work. High supply = low price, Low Supply = high price. Hooking a brother up by selling him some HTF sticks at no profit works too. Gouging is a myth. If you don't want to pay it, then don't buy it. If you have HTF sticks, and you price them too low, then one guy will buy them all. If you price them for what the market will bare then more people will get sticks, as simple as that. It seems crazy that here in the good ole USA we have folks questioning the foundation of our nation, which is capitalism. Making a product available wouldn't happen without profit. Who's going to go out of their way to make something if they don't get something out of it? (profit) No one, or very few = no supply or scarcity. If you believe otherwise, you need to be re-educated comrade!

This! ^

 

[smokemifugotem]

As a member of this community, one who has benefitted from members here hooking me up, I owe it back to the members of this community to do the same, and I do at every opportunity. If I've hooked you up because you're a member of this community, you owe it to the brotherhood to pay it forward as well.

However, if those guys are not part of the community of brothers, they have no similar obligation to us.

I agree with that statement totally. Furthermore, we're bitching about people on OLH for crying out loud. There isn't a community there. More gougers, scammers, purveyors of fakes, and rip of artists come from there then any where else in the cigar community. And anyone expects that place to suddenly have morals and appreciate a brotherhood? If this happened on here I could understand. This place aims to be a community and gouging is forbidden here. It isn't that way on OLH. Wade doesn't give 2 shits. Look how well TL cleaned up over there.

Having said all that there is a place for OLH and I have picked up more than one steal there in my day.

Agreed...that's why we have rules against it. And why the auction thread was closed. Difference between simple economics and being brotherly. Think we have gotten this a few times in this thread. Fucktards...especially the reason this thread was started

 

[bdc30]

This thread is coming close to having run it's course. As Nick alludes to, this is why we have rules against this kind of thing here. Off BOTL, there's no harm in a guy setting his price wherever he wants and if someone wants to buy it, more power to them.

Those other sites mentioned have avenues to 'call out' members for gouging (whether justified or not, but that's another issue). Feel free to use those methods in the future. If you feel someone has priced cigars unfairly here on BOTL, by all means get in touch with a mod/admin, but otherwise lets keep other boards' drama off this site.

Thanks and have a great day...lol

 

[armmmmm]

Getting your hands on HTF cigars is difficult and expensive. So, when you do, sometimes the only incentive you have to sell those sticks are if you can make some good money. I'm an LP fan and living in LA, it's near impossible to get them and when you do, it's for a premium. So if a box of FFPs cost me 200, the only reason I see myself giving that up is if I can sell it for 300+.

However, if the only intent someone has to purchase that box is to flip it and make BOTLs spend more money than we have to, then I'm with the people getting upset.

At the end, emotions/opinions don't matter...it's all economics. Supply and Demand.

 

[JEB]

I didn't have the time to read every post here, so maybe someone already said this, but...it's not about what someone is willing to pay. It's the fact that some shitbag bought these UF-4's with the intention of selling them at a rediculous price. And someone else who wanted to buy them to smoke, but couldn't get them because said shitbag bought them. That's it in a nutshell IMO.

 

[StogieNinja]

Why does the fact that he bought them to resell make him a "shitbag"? I guarantee you not everyone who bought them there bought them to smoke. Some guys bought them to collect. Others bought to smoke. Still more bought to trade or give to friends.and others bought them to sell so that they can pay for the cost of going to the event.

What's wrong with purchasing cigars to resell? You realize every single retailer you've ever bought cigars from does that right? They buy with the intention of reselling at a mark up. Every LE, every HTF, every cigar you've ever acquired has been purchased specifically to resell, marked up, and resold.

This guy just managed to do the work to find and acquire product on the open market that's in demand, and is now going to sell it on the open market to others who weren't able to make it to the event.

Reselling it for a profit would not be my choice, or yours, but there's no moral wrong being commited, and no legitimate reason for outrage.

 

[JEB]

Why does the fact that he bought them to resell make him a "shitbag"? I guarantee you not everyone who bought them there bought them to smoke. Some guys bought them to collect. Others bought to smoke. Still more bought to trade or give to friends.and others bought them to sell so that they can pay for the cost of going to the event.

What's wrong with purchasing cigars to resell? You realize every single retailer you've ever bought cigars from does that right? They buy with the intention of reselling at a mark up. Every LE, every HTF, every cigar you've ever acquired has been purchased specifically to resell, marked up, and resold. M

This guy just managed to do the work to find and acquire product on the open market that's in demand, and is now going to sell it on the open market to others who weren't able to make it to the event.

Reselling it for a profit would not be my choice, or yours, but there's no moral wrong being commited, and no legitimate reason for outrage.

C'mon man, it's an asshole move. And it's not reselling to someone who couldn't make it to the event. People who went to the event couldn't get them.

 

[JEB]

No offense really, but my point is that someone was the last to get them. And the guy behind him got nothing. But would have, had someone not been there for the enjoyment of smoking, sharing, trading, etc, but was only there to take advantage. That's a shitbag move.

 

[StogieNinja]

Again, that doesn't mean what he did makes him an "asshole" or a "shitbag." You might not like it, but that doesn't make what you or I would do morally superior.

I don't know the guy from Adam, and I'm certainly not defending his character. I'm just saying there are a lot of injustices to complain about in the world, but this ain't one of them. If the guy behind him is pissed, he should be pissed for not getting there half an hour sooner.

If there weren't willing people paying markups for the product, the guy wouldn't be able to do to what he's doing. So someone, somewhere, is quite happy to voluntarily pay the markup. If we want to stop the "gougers" we as a community should stop pursuing rare, HTF, and LE cigars. When we pursue such things, we simply provide more incentive for companies to make them, and subsequently for others to try and profit as middle men. But as long as we support companies releasing HTF/LE cigars, as long as we purchase cigars on the secondary market, we create the market ourselves.

And you know what? I'm ok with that. I'll buy and sell rare stuff at my cost here, and I gladly help guys here in the same way that they'll gladly help me. I was able to get a few Uf-4's thanks to a very helpful BOTL here, and three of those will be passed on to other BOTLs who have helped me in the past. Neither the guy helping me, or the guys I'll forward them to will make a dime on anything.

But when no one here can help me find a rare or HTF cigar that I want, I'm glad a secondary market exists. I'm glad sometimes there are markups on cigars, because it means that while it wasn't worth it to the last guy to pay the markup, it's worth it to me to acquire that particular item. Have I paid more than MSRP for cigars? You bet. Was it worth it to me? You bet, or I wouldn't have paid for them.

The issue comes down to one of entitlement. The only reason to be pissed of at the gouger is if you somehow felt he took something you were entitled to. I don't feel entitled to anything, so it really doesn't bother me that much. Do I wish all HTF cigars could be found at MSRP? You bet! But I also wish I could buy LP9s for $5. Ain't gonna happen. Just the way it is, man. Just the way it is.

 

[JEB]

Again, no offense, I agree with 99% of what you say, but it's still an asshole move. Regardless if it happens in every walk of life.

 

[xFreebirdx]

I wonder how much the last case of cigarettes will go for? If that ever happens..............

 

[JEB]

Lol!!