The new boom?

[MichiganM]

Well, I guess since it would require only a couple words it may be difficult. :hysterica

If you would have given me a box name, like say VSG Corona Gordas, I was going to ask you to compare the satisfaction YOU would receive from smoking each.

They both cost the same but are they equally satisfying to you?

They are the same size.

The JLs can be bought, with age, from any number of vendors at a decent price, ~$200.

Good luck finding any store anywhere in the country or online that could sell you a box of VSG Corona Gordas for anywhere near that if they even had them.

Just let go of the "VSGs are a premium NC and the JLs are a mid-range Cuban" for a minute.

Do you see my point? For the same amount of money the Cuban cigar is easier to get, cheaper, and almost everyone would agree is a more enjoyable cigar.

Haha, so very very funny.....you know with the way I post nothing is just a couple words....I ramble on and on and on :stretchgr

But seriously, I see what you're saying.

 

[Wasch_24]

:sing:
Leaves are falling all around,
It’s time I was on my way.
Thanks to you, I’m much obliged
For such a pleasant stay.

But now it’s time for me to go,
The autumn moon lights my way.
For now I smell the rain,
And with it pain,
And it’s headed my way.
Ah, sometimes I grow so tired,
But I know I’ve got one thing I got to do,

Ramble on,
And now’s the time, the time is now
To sing my song.
I’m goin’ ’round the world,
I got to find my girl, on my way.
I’ve been this way ten years to the day, ramble on,
Gotta find the queen of all my dreams.
:sing:

 

[MichiganM]

:sing:
Leaves are falling all around,
It’s time I was on my way.
Thanks to you, I’m much obliged
For such a pleasant stay.

But now it’s time for me to go,
The autumn moon lights my way.
For now I smell the rain,
And with it pain,
And it’s headed my way.
Ah, sometimes I grow so tired,
But I know I’ve got one thing I got to do,

Ramble on,
And now’s the time, the time is now
To sing my song.
I’m goin’ ’round the world,
I got to find my girl, on my way.
I’ve been this way ten years to the day, ramble on,
Gotta find the queen of all my dreams.
:sing:

:rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

Ya know I was just talking about that song at work today. Did you know a surprising percentage songs by LZ are Lord of the Rings orientated? That was the first song that came to my mind...as later in the song they're talking about Gollom and the evil one.

Very funny though!!!!

 

[Wasch_24]

Zeppelin was the first Rock and Roll I ever listened too...on my Dad's reel-to-reel player. :thumbsup:

:sing:
I ain’t tellin’ no lie.

Mine’s a tale that can’t be told,
My freedom I hold dear;
How years ago in days of old
When magic filled the air,
T’was in the darkest depths of mordor
I met a girl so fair,
But gollum, and the evil one crept up
And slipped away with her.
Her, her....yea.
Ain’t nothing I can do, no.

Ramble on,
And now’s the time, the time is now
To sing my song.
I’m goin’ ’round the world,
I got to find my girl, on my way.
I’ve been this way ten years to the day, ramble on,
Gotta find the queen of all my dreams.

Gonna ramble on, sing my song
Gotta keep-a-searchin’ for my baby...
Gonna work my way, round the world
I can’t stop this feelin’ in my heart
Gotta keep searchin’ for my baby
I can’t find my bluebird!
I’d listen to my bluebird sing but I can’t find my blue bird
A-keep-a ramblin’ baby...
:sing:


Great song. :guitar:

 

[MichiganM]

Definitely a good song. I think my fav ever is Achilles Last Stand though. That was Jimmy's fav too, I believe..but don't quote me. I remember him talking about it being his fav because of all the troubles they had to go through to record it with the accident that involved Plant and all.

Great band, in my top 3 all time.

 

[cvm4]

fftopic: :banned:


:hysterica

 

[MichiganM]

fftopic: :banned:


:hysterica

:grinFU:

 

[caudio51]

Although, why pay for the Porsche (Opus) when you get better, IMO, performance from a Chevy (Juan Lopez #1). :dunno:

I know exactly what you mean but it ain't a Porsche/Chevy.

It's more a Lamborghini/Porsche. Both well refined, but you can get very good performance from the Porsche (cuban), it just costs a lot less than the Lamborghini.

Well, that might not be the best but it's closer.

I think you are just noticing cigar smoking more. I do now. I hope the embargo is not lifted. It would drive the price of cuban cigars through the roof.

 

[Jwrussell]

OK MM, here's your apples to apples. Cohiba Sublimes vs Opus X of comparable size. That would be apples to apples, right?

Cohiba '04 EL Sublimes: $560-650, available at all three of the first vendors that popped into my head. And, though this is somewhat debateable, a TRUE Limited Edition. Remember, the Opus X comes "available" every year.

Comparable box of AF Opus X? Find me a source that has them in stock, first of all. I found two after about 10 minutes of searching. Neither of which I was familiar with. Both sources were between $300 and $500+ (!!!) MORE than the Sublimes. Granted the Opus come with more per box, but it's still more expensive even then.

Now, back to the apples to apples. Like I said, subject to some debate, you still aren't comparing apples to apples as the Sublimes are true Limited Editions whereas the Opus are produced every year, simply in limited quantities. You'd be better off comparing say...Fuente Don Carlos to Cohiba Robustos? At that point you are looking for approximately a $100 premium for the Cohiba (this is based on one random price check for each stick, not comprehensive by any means). In which case, I'd easily pick the Cohiba over the Fuente.

As to people saying they'd pick any cuban over "X" NC, that's a taste issue and as they see it a value issue as they prefer the Cuban smoke over any NC. Not an objective comparison.

OK, guess I should appologize for being fftopic: on my own thread. :headroll:

 

[cvm4]

This is probably the most indepth cuban v. n/c debate I've ever read :yes:

 

[MichiganM]

OK MM, here's your apples to apples. Cohiba Sublimes vs Opus X of comparable size. That would be apples to apples, right?

Cohiba '04 EL Sublimes: $560-650, available at all three of the first vendors that popped into my head. And, though this is somewhat debateable, a TRUE Limited Edition. Remember, the Opus X comes "available" every year.

Comparable box of AF Opus X? Find me a source that has them in stock, first of all. I found two after about 10 minutes of searching. Neither of which I was familiar with. Both sources were between $300 and $500+ (!!!) MORE than the Sublimes. Granted the Opus come with more per box, but it's still more expensive even then.

Now, back to the apples to apples. Like I said, subject to some debate, you still aren't comparing apples to apples as the Sublimes are true Limited Editions whereas the Opus are produced every year, simply in limited quantities. You'd be better off comparing say...Fuente Don Carlos to Cohiba Robustos? At that point you are looking for approximately a $100 premium for the Cohiba (this is based on one random price check for each stick, not comprehensive by any means). In which case, I'd easily pick the Cohiba over the Fuente.

As to people saying they'd pick any cuban over "X" NC, that's a taste issue and as they see it a value issue as they prefer the Cuban smoke over any NC. Not an objective comparison.

OK, guess I should appologize for being fftopic: on my own thread. :headroll:

You make a good point...the Sublimes would be hard to compare to any non-cuban cigar period. It's really in it's own stratosphere. I like your Don Carlos comparison...more apples to apples. Padron 64's would be a great comparison as well. Let's take 64 Exclusivo's to Cohiba Robusto's. The Exclusivo's come in at about 250...the Robusto's come with the 100 dollar premium you spoke of. But, definitely in the end it's subjective to taste and value based on that taste. I was only getting to that issue...not really the issue of cubans being BETTER than non-cubans for that issue is a no-brainer to most. I was getting to the objective FAIR value to value issue. I think when taste comes into play people want to be subjective rather than objective, but you make an excellent point. You say compare a certain non-cuban to ANY cuban and it's really more a bushel to an apple. But that's taste and like I said in response to Fox's post I agree with most of it. I just like objective arguments based on facts (premium to premium) rather than subjective taste (I love cubans, PERIOD). You adding in the objective issue is brilliant. Sorry for being off-topic again, I just wanted to reply to that, as that was a better explanation than I gave. Well done, Jason.

 

[Wasch_24]

How can you define a "fair value" without considering peoples tastes though?

I don't see how that is possible.

I think the last few pages need to be split off into their own thread.

Oh, and CoRos are only $300...$50 more then the PAMs. :thumbsup:

Good luck finding a whole box of PAM64s for sale.

 

[MichiganM]

You'd be better off comparing say...Fuente Don Carlos to Cohiba Robustos? At that point you are looking for approximately a $100 premium for the Cohiba (this is based on one random price check for each stick, not comprehensive by any means). In which case, I'd easily pick the Cohiba over the Fuente.

See even in the case of the Cuban costing more, not less, like some were saying..you'd STILL pick the cuban. If anything, that says alot about cuban cigars and their value to most people. I wasn't arguing that cuban cigars are more or less of a value than non-cubans. I think 99 percent of the time you're getting a better value if you have a slightly deeper pocket book (I'm going non-prem to non-prem). So really, in the end, if you want to compare apples to apples or not, cubans usually come out in the end on top no matter what because it's TASTE. So, if anything this thread speaks volumes about the quality of cuban cigars. I just wanted to make the comparison objective. I guess I love the topic of cigars and could talk all day, whereas most people are probably like "just shut up dude".

:rofl:

 

[Wasch_24]

I need to smoke a $12 VSG to even start to come close to the satisfaction in flavors and smoking experience I get from a $6 cuban cigar...and it doesn't even come all that close.

 

[Wasch_24]

Wow! Those PAM64s cost more than most Cubans cigars.

http://www.jayscigars.com/index.php?cPath=21_46&src=overture

 

[MichiganM]

How can you define a "fair value" without considering peoples tastes though?

Taste is subjective..something that is added in ONLY after you make an objective argument.

Compare something objectively (like a BMW to a Mercedes or a Lambo to a Ferrari...or a PAM to a CoRo and a Brazilia to a JL 1) THEN you add subjective matter. See what I mean?

After the objective comparison is made, you make your taste the true winner.

In the case of an objective comparison between a premium non-cuban PAM Exclusivo and a premium cuban CoRo people's SUBJECTIVE taste will tell them which side of the fence they lay on. But, first, you must make an argument objective...this is in all areas of life, not just cigars. You can't compare things in different classes and make the comparison fair..I only brought up cars because we debate them at work all day at my dealership.

As far as prices...your CoRo will vary widely based on vendor. PAM's typically go for 250-260 a box on CBid...one just went for that last night. 5 packs are typically more per cigar.

Hope I made sense.

 

[Wasch_24]

Coros are right at $300 every where I looked...not including any VAT or anything like that. Quting prices from an auction site? LOL

You cannot be Objective when talking about value.

Value is a Subjective thing, regardless.

 

[Fox]

Good post, JW. You touch on something else that has a huge effect on the market price - the basic economics of supply and demand.

Cigars like Opus-X are priced very high for two reasons: 1) they are highly restricted by production to keep demand and price artificially high; 2) they are marketed as the ultimate premium to a huge captive market, mostly American, that has no access to Habanos. IMHO, cigars like Opus-X, VSG's and many others would suffer dramatic price crashes if the embargo was lifted.

Now, having said that, I think it is in the best interest of the Habano lover to keep the great, unwashed masses (I say that truly with tongue in cheek :grin: ) focused on those uber premium NC's. eace: The NC producers have way too much to lose if the embargo is ever lifted. Lifting the embargo would drive CC prices through the roof and NC prices into the cellar, at least in the short term. Over the longer term they would have to compete on an equal footing based upon taste, overall quality, price and availability. For the consumer, that would be the ultimate objective and true competition for the customer's dollar.

 

[MichiganM]

I need to smoke a $12 VSG to even start to come close to the satisfaction in flavors and smoking experience I get from a $6 cuban cigar...and it doesn't even come all that close.

And that's your taste, which I'm not arguing over. My taste would usually tend to be the same. But, in order to make a fair argument for both sides, you need to be objective...just like when comparing anything in life. Usually though, when people have their minds made up, you can be objective all day long...but you still want to be fair. At least, I like things to be fair.

Look at it in the court system. To have an OBJECTIVE trial based on facts and non-biased info...they weed out SUBJECTIVE people based on asking them questions. They don't want people who already have their minds made up about a certain subject and/or person.

Again, not arguing that cubans aren't better. Arguing that you must make the comparison fair.

Cubans being better than all others is an opinion..not a fact. What you compare them to as far as prices and level of premiumness are facts.

 

[MichiganM]

Coros are right at $300 every where I looked...not including any VAT or anything like that. Quting prices from an auction site? LOL

You cannot be Objective when talking about value.

Value is a Subjective thing, regardless.

I'm saying you must be objective about comparisons Todd, re-read my posts. Not saying to be objective about value. VALUE IS SUBJECTIVE...I already said that...don't mis-quote me. Value is relative to taste and how bad you want something.

I was saying be objective about COMPARISONS...you are widely mis-understanding my whole concept.