The new boom?

[Fox]

. . .snip. . .You cannot be Objective when talking about value.

Value is a Subjective thing, regardless.

Excellent point, Todd. There is perceived value, as Todd notes, and utility value: the usability of an item when no other will suffice; e.g. - if you are in combat, which has more value; money or a rifle? :grin:

In the interest of full disclosure, I should add that I am falling further and further into the darkness. For whatever reason, I find that the more I smoke Habanos, the less I like NC's, even the super premiums. I had a 1964 last night and while good, it left me thinking of the Bolivar Corona from the night before. My palate is telling me that NC's are on their way out. That certainly effects my "perceived value" of any given smoke and my future purchasing habits.

 

[Wasch_24]

And that's your taste, which I'm not arguing over. My taste would usually tend to be the same. But, in order to make a fair argument for both sides, you need to be objective...just like when comparing anything in life. Usually though, when people have their minds made up, you can be objective all day long...but you still want to be fair. At least, I like things to be fair.

Look at it in the court system. To have an OBJECTIVE trial based on facts and non-biased info...they weed out SUBJECTIVE people based on asking them questions. They don't want people who already have their minds made up about a certain subject and/or person.

Again, not arguing that cubans aren't better. Arguing that you must make the comparison fair.

Cubans being better than all others is an opinion..not a fact. What you compare them to as far as prices and level of premiumness are facts.

If you are not comparing the taste of a cigar then what are you comparing?

How they look and feel? Subjective

How they smell? Subjective

How the box looks? Subjective

How can you compare antyhing having to do with cigars without any subjective influences? I don't think it is possible.

 

[Wasch_24]

I'm saying you must be objective about comparisons Todd, re-read my posts. Not saying to be objective about value. VALUE IS SUBJECTIVE...I already said that...don't mis-quote me. Value is relative to taste and how bad you want something.

I was saying be objective about COMPARISONS...you are widely mis-understanding my whole concept.

What is your concept then?

See my above post.

How can you compare cigars when eliminating all subjective influences?

 

[Jwrussell]

I hear ya MM. Unfortunately, it's extremely difficult to subtract the "taste" part of the equation out to get a truly objective comparison. Especially when you take into accoutnt he differences in how each group (CC and NC) go to market. Not only are the supplies vastly different, the markets are different, hell, even the sizes are different! Just one of those discussions that's fun to have but in the end, very difficult to seperate out of "subjective" feelings. Kind of like arguing Ford v Chevy v Dodge. lol

 

[Wasch_24]

Near impossible JW.

 

[MichiganM]

What is your concept then?

See my above post.

How can you compare cigars when eliminating all subjective influences?

Umm, the INITIAL comparison must be objective...I notice you didn't quote my post where I explained this.

Comparing a PAM 64 to a Cohiba is objective because they are both premium cigars from their respectable lands. Just as a Ferrari and a Lambo are premium cars. Comparing a Lambo to a Chevy would be opinion's sake..and not a FAIR and objective comparison because they are totally different. An Onyx and a Sublime would not be fair for the same reasons...totally different cigars catered to totally different people.

Once you have that initial comparison....a 64 to a Cohiba...then you can be subjective. You can say I like the Cohiba because to me it tastes better, feels better, to me it's a better value. It smells better, it looks better, it's all around BETTER. That's a SUBJECTIVE opinion.

I'm not arguing opinions or what is and what's not subjective. But to get to your subjective opinion you must be objective with what you're comparing. As is true when comparing houses, cars, tv's, cigars, golf clubs...whatever.

Similar classes of a similar product would be objective.

 

[MichiganM]

Kind of like arguing Ford v Chevy v Dodge. lol

Ahh, exactly!! That initial comparison (not the actual argument between which is better) IS OBJECTIVE. Exactamundo. Ford v Chevy v Dodge v Ferrari would not be objective.

Which is a BETTER car is SUBJECTIVE.

 

[Wasch_24]

But what are you comparing in the cigars? The fact they are cigars?

Why can't you compare a Chevy to a Lambo? They are both cars...objectively speaking.

 

[Jwrussell]

But what's the point of comparing if you aren't looking for some kind of answer in the end, i.e. "which is better"? I guess that's what it comes down to. Sure, we can objectively compare cigars, but is the information you get out of such an objective comparison worth the trouble? :dunno:

 

[Wasch_24]

Your point has been lost on me Jason, MichiganM. I don't see how anything in the world can be compared, in any manner, without subjective influence...other than comparing them physically...i.e. weight, length, etc.

 

[MichiganM]

But what are you comparing in the ciagrs? The fact they are cigars?

Why can't you compare a Chevy to a Lambo? They are both cars...objectively speaking.

What am I comparing? I've said it like 10 times....the class of cigars...premium v premium and non prem v non prem.

You can compare a Chevy to a Lambo...but you won't get fair opinions on which would be preferable because they are in totally dfferent class ranges with totally different price ranges catered to different people altogether.

Since you say that...let's start comparing Cohiba to Onyx. Both cigars....objectively speaking.

Big difference between the two.

 

[Wasch_24]

Objectively speaking?

One has a yellow and black band and the other has a white and black band.

Both come in a varnished box...I think.

Both come in a variety of sizes.

Both are cigars.

Both are made of tobacco.

One cigar is made in Cuba...the other is made in Nic.?

They seem very similar to me...objectively.

Isn't the class of the cigar subjective as well? At the very least it is influenced by the compare-ers bank roll.

 

[MichiganM]

But what's the point of comparing if you aren't looking for some kind of answer in the end, i.e. "which is better"? I guess that's what it comes down to. Sure, we can objectively compare cigars, but is the information you get out of such an objective comparison worth the trouble? :dunno:

That depends on who ya ask. My initial point is that I hear all the time people saying why buy an Opus when you can buy a Boli PC for 1/5 the price?

To me, not an objective comparison and I laid down reasons why it's not. Sure, most people would take ANY cuban over ANY non-cuban and that's great. I would usually agree...again not what I'm arguing. I'm saying that if you wanna be fair you should compare similar cigars.

 

[Fox]

I would say that in this instance it is impossible.

Let us take the Sublime vs. Opus example proposed earlier as an apples to apples comparison. What makes these "apples to apples", or roughly equal in the objective sense? The only objective comparisons that can be made are the price and availability of each, which has been set by the economics of the existing market. Assuming both are available and price is no object, if you lay them next to each other you will see superb construction, flawless appearance and a high price. You have no way to break the tie or decide which is best except by testing the product, which is a subjective exercise. You will choose the product that you like best and in this case, it is the taste alone that will lead to that decision. There is no utility value given to either because there are substitutes that will suffice.

It is extremely difficult to compare CC's and NC's on any kind of objective footing due to the artificial markets created by restricted supplies and trade embargos.

 

[MichiganM]

Objectively speaking?

One has a yellow and black band and the other has a white and black band.

Both come in a varnished box...I think.

Both come in a variety of sizes.

Both are cigars.

Both are made of tobacco.

One cigar is made in Cuba...the other is made in Nic.?

Boy, this is great fun.

Todd, it comes down to us agreeing to disagree. I don't see your point and you don't see mine. I think that's clear.

I think you're a great BOTL as I hope you think the same of me.

Perhaps, sometime in the future, I'll have to bomb you with a couple of Ferrari's to say "all in fun, bro". :assaultri

Take care man!

 

[MichiganM]

I would say that in this instance it is impossible.

Let us take the Sublime vs. Opus example proposed earlier as an apples to apples comparison. What makes these "apples to apples", or roughly equal in the objective sense? The only objective comparisons that can be made are the price and availability of each, which has been set by the economics of the existing market. Assuming both are available and price is no object, if you lay them next to each other you will see superb construction, flawless appearance and a high price. You have no way to break the tie or decide which is best except by testing the product, which is a subjective exercise. You will choose the product that you like best and in this case, it is the taste alone that will lead to that decision. There is no utility value given to either because there are substitutes that will suffice.

It is extremely difficult to compare CC's and NC's on any kind of objective footing due to the artificial markets created by restricted supplies and trade embargos.

That's the exact scenario I was speaking of Fox. The initial comparison being objective...then taste "winning the day" as I said before. That's all I was saying. Subjective taste will always come into play, I'm not retarded. The initial comparison is what I was concerned with.

 

[Wasch_24]

I fail to see the point of an objective comparison.

Oh, and I edited on ya...sorry.

Are you done? Why? :dunno:

 

[Wasch_24]

Objectively speaking?

One has a yellow and black band and the other has a white and black band.

Both come in a varnished box...I think.

Both come in a variety of sizes.

Both are cigars.

Both are made of tobacco.

One cigar is made in Cuba...the other is made in Nic.?

They seem very similar to me...objectively.

Isn't the class of the cigar subjective as well? At the very least it is influenced by the compare-ers bank roll.

From my POV this proves your point...all cigars are essentially the same until the smokers tastes or preferences are considered.

 

[Wasch_24]

That's the exact scenario I was speaking of Fox. The initial comparison being objective...then taste "winning the day" as I said before. That's all I was saying. Subjective taste will always come into play, I'm not retarded. The initial comparison is what I was concerned with.

Then they are the same objectively. All cigars of the same "class" will be.

WTF?

Is this all some sort of cruel joke?

 

[Jwrussell]

MM, you are absolutely horrible for productivity bro'! Now you've got me discussing this on IM with Todd! Damn you! :wink: