The new boom?

[Fox]

That's the exact scenario I was speaking of Fox. The initial comparison being objective...then taste "winning the day" as I said before. That's all I was saying. Subjective taste will always come into play, I'm not retarded. The initial comparison is what I was concerned with.

But Jason, that is exactly why there is truly no objectivity available for this comparison. If you take an unbanded $25 Opus and place it next to the unbanded $8 JL #1 (assuming similar size and construction, of course), you will not be able to tell the difference visually (assuming you do not notice the triple cap :grin: ). The JL is, as you put it, an "every day" Cuban. To the purchaser however, it will be the taste which will carry the decision. And, if that JL #1 comes from HKV 03, it will win every time in my book, even though it is 1/3 the price of its competitor. The objectivity you keep referring to is price range based upon perceived value and the idiosyncrasies of the market. Even your Cohiba vs Onyx comparison is only objective based upon price range and market perceptions. While price can often be used to create some level of objectivity, such as the car example, it does not work for products outside of the free market, nor does it work when there are large numbers of products with equal utility value. In the case of cigars, there is no free market because of the restrictions upon Cubans, and there are literally thousands of products with equal utility.

 

[Greg]

:sing:
Leaves are falling all around,
It’s time I was on my way.
Thanks to you, I’m much obliged
For such a pleasant stay.

But now it’s time for me to go,
The autumn moon lights my way.
For now I smell the rain,
And with it pain,
And it’s headed my way.
Ah, sometimes I grow so tired,
But I know I’ve got one thing I got to do,

Ramble on,
And now’s the time, the time is now
To sing my song.
I’m goin’ ’round the world,
I got to find my girl, on my way.
I’ve been this way ten years to the day, ramble on,
Gotta find the queen of all my dreams.
:sing:

I've got this song stuck in my head now....DAMN YOU TODD!!! :hammersma :innocent:

 

[MichiganM]

But Jason, that is exactly why there is truly no objectivity available for this comparison. If you take an unbanded $25 Opus and place it next to the unbanded $8 JL #1 (assuming similar size and construction, of course), you will not be able to tell the difference visually (assuming you do not notice the triple cap :grin: ). The JL is, as you put it, an "every day" Cuban. To the purchaser however, it will be the taste which will carry the decision. And, if that JL #1 comes from HKV 03, it will win every time in my book, even though it is 1/3 the price of its competitor. The objectivity you keep referring to is price range based upon perceived value and the idiosyncrasies of the market. Even your Cohiba vs Onyx comparison is only objective based upon price range and market perceptions. While price can often be used to create some level of objectivity, such as the car example, it does not work for products outside of the free market, nor does it work when there are large numbers of products with equal utility value. In the case of cigars, there is no free market because of the restrictions upon Cubans, and there are literally thousands of products with equal utility.

All valid points Fox. Unfortunately, therein lies the fault of humanity. You want to start comparing unbanded cigars and we are in a whole new realm of what's objective and what not....but your initial post (which started this all hahahaaha) was comparing an Opus/VSG/PAM to pretty much any Cuban cigar. You cornered a few high-end non-cubans and took them against any cuban. That, my friend, is where I'm at. Unbanded cigar comparison is not where we started. The fault of humanity is that yes, we as humans do take price, availability and the like and lump that into a "class"...just as humans themselves are lumped into "classes" based on job, size of home and the like. Like it or not, but that is humanity. Cigars too, are in classes. Comparing similar classes is where my objectivity issue stands.

 

[MichiganM]

MM, you are absolutely horrible for productivity bro'! Now you've got me discussing this on IM with Todd! Damn you! :wink:

:hysterica :hysterica :hysterica

 

[Fox]

. . .snip. . .Comparing similar classes is where my objectivity issue stands.

Exactly, and I am saying it cannot be done. The very objectivity you seek is set by market perception, availability and perceived value = price. There is no capability to be truly objective in this instance. In your own posts you are using super premium NC's and comparing them to Sublime's as one example. It is price range and availability that you are using for your objective position. You say my comparison of high end NC's vs. any Cuban is not valid because of the price range of the cigars. What makes the NC's super premium? It is the market. What makes the Sublimes so expensive? It is the market. Who decides what classes of NC or CC are equal? It is the market. The market is extremely fickle and can change at a moment's notice depending upon many external conditions. There is no truly objective method of comparing NC and CC and price alone is not an objective base.

Great point Fox! However, I'd like to add that what you said is only applicable when you're comparing ultra premium non-Cuban cigars to regular production Cuban cigars. Not really all that fair of an argument. You compare ultra-premium Cuban cigars to ultra-premium non-Cuban cigars then it's more of a fair fight. I'm talkin EL's and most high end Cohiba's. This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say Cuban cigars are always looked at differently. I don't know why people don't compare apples to apples when speaking of cigars from different sections of the world. The only thing different about Cuban cigars is the soil and climate...they taste great I'll give you that...but all I'm saying is compare apples to apples.

I looked up a quick definition of the word objective: "undistorted by emotion or personal bias; based on observable phenomena; "an objective appraisal"; "objective evidence"" In the truest sense of the word then, my post about unbanded cigars would stand and the $25 Opus would lose to the $8, "everyday", JL #1, based upon subjective testing. To the rational, neutral observer, price is irrelevant as it cannot be observed and, even if it could be, it is skewed by market conditions. Objectivity ends with the physical examination of the cigars. The rational observer would be completely fooled by the ploy because the objective phenomena were roughly equivalent. To he/she, the apples to apples comparison would have been fulfilled. The apples to apples comparison exists since we have chosen two cigars that have roughly the same size and physical characteristics as viewed and appraised by observation.

The crux of the matter is that not all things can be objectively evaluated when the playing field is not level. Market restrictions, embargos, bumper crops, hurricanes - you name it, all play a part in setting the price and skewing the playing field. In short, evaluating some things will always be a subjective exercise with little or no objectivity involved. I am saying flat out that the NC/CC comparison is one such case. eace:

In any case, I have enjoyed the heck out of this thread. . .:smile:

 

[Wasch_24]

Excellent post!

I am so glad I am not the only one that believes this:

<snip>There is no capability to be truly objective in this instance. ...</snip>

 

[MichiganM]

Exactly, and I am saying it cannot be done. The very objectivity you seek is set by market perception, availability and perceived value = price. There is no capability to be truly objective in this instance. In your own posts you are using super premium NC's and comparing them to Sublime's as one example. It is price range and availability that you are using for your objective position.
QUOTE]

Excellent observations Fox. A couple of things to chew on however. What makes a premium a premium? I think we clearly have different views on what it is that makes one such. Getting to that is needed before we can say you must take premium v premium.

Your observations have led you to believe I am only talking price...I did use price because it is a quick and easy point of reference. If you, and the other people on this board, only use price as a point of quality then I think we had all find different hobbies. Price is an easy reference yes, and this is adjusted to market conditions by the manufacturer and by supply and demand among other factors. A premium cigar's high price tag is a reaction to it's quality, however. Well, that's what I believe in most cases. Some are just over-priced and over-hyped. That's where subjectivity comes into play once you've smoked one.

You say I took price and availability. Not really. If that's all a premium is, then why smoke one? A premium is usually rolled with better blends, higher quality leaf that usually yiels less per season, aged extensively longer, rolled by higher skilled torcedors, handled differently, packaged differently, and the like. Whether they taste better or not is up to you. You mention price and market conditions extensively, but you never mention what's at the heart of a premium and THAT'S EXACTLY WHY I HAVE SUCH A PROBLEM WITH COMPARING PREMIUM CIGARS TO NON-PREMIUM.

You say a JL which is a non-prem would win everyday over an Opus? Well, that's your opinion and not a fact, even though you may feel extremely strong about it. Your opinion may be shared by many others, and may be debated by many others. I haven't had a chance to smoke a JL so I can't debate that with you to be honest. However, that Opus is more than inflated artificial price and what not..at least it should be if it's a premium. If it's just price, then why does anyone buy premiums? If you say luster and no shine, then some people may question why people buy anything. But ahh, that's where personal preference and personal enjoyment comes into play. But that's just what it is, personal and subjective. What is true, and what is objective is what is a premium cigar and what's not. If you're saying an Opus isn't good, that's fine. However, it is a premium cigar where it comes from. A Ferrari may be euro-trash to some, but it is still a hand-made premium car.

To wrap it up, you say the objectivity I seek is from market perception, availability and price. Price comes from the premium aspect of it..that's an effect of the premiumness. So yes, that is one. Availability, again, is from it being a premium. Are there a million Ferrari's on the road? No, because it's a premium and therefore has slim availability. Market perception? The market is a convulted area made up by supply and demand. The perception of it? I'm sure the market perceives an Opus, Sublime, 64, 26, EL, etc etc as all premiums...and a JL as a non-premium. The market dictates this as you well pointed out. But there is more a reason for that then just "Hey I'm Fuente, this is a premium, smoke it"....I think it's a little more in-depth than that whether it's cuban or not, but of course that is up for debate. Which side of the fence you're on comes out on the subjective end after you actually smoke one, and that can be debated till no end because they are opinions, not facts. However, whether a premium cigar is a premium or not (in my opinion) is not up for debate. Something that is premium is usually somehow different then the comparable models of itself, usually in a positive way. Is a 64 a premium over a 3000? Absolutely and I think you will find that 90 percent of people agree with that. But of course, I digress on that because that is made up of personal preferences. However, there is no denying that they are more meticulously made, use better blends, aged longer, etc etc and that is why they are premium (at least in my eyes). More expensive and less available? Perhaps because of subjectivity and higher levels of satisfaction taste-wise...or perhaps because of the reasons I also mentioned.

Again, just some things to chew on..and I as well have enjoyed the hell out of this thread!

:grin:

 

[CWS]

Wow. I go home and you guys take it on thru the night into the morning. Very interesting thread. Its kinda simple for me. I have 600 some odd cigars at home with over 400 being ISOM's. I have a cigar after dinner every night. Every night I choose between a variety of NC's and CC both expensive and inexpensive. The reality is 5 of the seven days I smoke the ISOM. If I got em, I smoke em first. I just prefer them to the NC. Yes I like Opus, Padron, CAO, La Perla etc...But given a choice, I'm always going for the ISOM...All subjective...
Good thread!!!:thumbsup:

 

[Jwrussell]

Some interesting thoughts in there Jason. However, what you seem to be getting at is that it's all in how you define "premium" and "non-premium". I think you could have just as long of a discussion trying to iron out a definition that would work for most. You mention that "premiums" are rolled by more experienced Torcedors, use higher quality leaf, are aged extensively longer and use better blends, just to mention a few. These are all some good benchmarks, but don't all apply to NC and CC evenly. Especialy the "aged extensively" part.
Certainly Cohibas (and I believe Trinidad) go through an extra fermentation, but unless you are talking Reservas (PSD4R for a specific example) almost no Cuban cigars, "premium" or not are aged any more extensively than the rest.
Rolled by more experienced Torcedors? To a certain extent for CCs again, but you'll find that more experienced Torc's roll the larger cigars period in Havannah, does that make all of the large cigars "premiums"? Not really.
Higher quality leaf? A tough one. And very subjective. Quite a few would say that any Cuban leaf (bypassing what is used for machine made) is higher quality than quite a few NC blends.
Better blends? A whole other definition problem. What do we mean by "better blends"? In CC's the blend is all of one nation's leaf, in NC's it could be 2,3 or more, or again, a Puro of one nation.

Just doing my part to throw wrenches! :headroll:

Seriously though, enjoying this discussion.

 

[Wasch_24]

"However, whether a premium cigar is a premium or not (in my opinion) is not up for debate. Something that is premium is usually somehow different then the comparable models of itself, usually in a positive way."

I have to disagree with this statement. A premium cigar to you and I may not be considered a premium cigar to the like of Donald Trump. i.e. An Opus can easily be agreed on as a premium cigar to you and I but to Donald it could be a "peso" cigar because he affords the title of premium to Pre-Embargo Dunhills and such.

Jason,
I am saying this with the utmost respect but you ran 'round and 'round in cirlces around your "point" in that post and have totaly lost me.

What exactly are you debating here?

It seems to me that EVERY aspect of a cigar is subjective and therefore cigars cannot be discussed objectively.

 

[MichiganM]

Some interesting thoughts in there Jason. However, what you seem to be getting at is that it's all in how you define "premium" and "non-premium". I think you could have just as long of a discussion trying to iron out a definition that would work for most. You mention that "premiums" are rolled by more experienced Torcedors, use higher quality leaf, are aged extensively longer and use better blends, just to mention a few. These are all some good benchmarks, but don't all apply to NC and CC evenly. Especialy the "aged extensively" part.
Certainly Cohibas (and I believe Trinidad) go through an extra fermentation, but unless you are talking Reservas (PSD4R for a specific example) almost no Cuban cigars, "premium" or not are aged any more extensively than the rest.
Rolled by more experienced Torcedors? To a certain extent for CCs again, but you'll find that more experienced Torc's roll the larger cigars period in Havannah, does that make all of the large cigars "premiums"? Not really.
Higher quality leaf? A tough one. And very subjective. Quite a few would say that any Cuban leaf (bypassing what is used for machine made) is higher quality than quite a few NC blends.
Better blends? A whole other definition problem. What do we mean by "better blends"? In CC's the blend is all of one nation's leaf, in NC's it could be 2,3 or more, or again, a Puro of one nation.

Just doing my part to throw wrenches! :headroll:

Seriously though, enjoying this discussion.

Good points. Simplicity...I like it. You want simplicity...I can dig that. Ask yourself these questions then get back to me when you can...

Is a Sublime a premium?
Is a VSG a premium?
Is an Opus a premium?
Is a 64 a premium?
Is a PSD4 Reserva a premium?
Is a JL 2 a premium?
Is a Boli PC a premium?

Just get back whenever you can buddy.

:smokingco

 

[Greg]

By the way Jason, you passed 1000 posts on this thread. Was that your objective? :hysterica

 

[MichiganM]

By the way Jason, you passed 1000 posts on this thread. Was that your objective? :hysterica

Haha, that's funny man. I didn't even notice that...I guess if that was my objective I did a good job runnin my mouth!

:computer:

:hysterica

 

[Jwrussell]

I don't know, we haven't agreed upon a definition yet. :grinFU:

Seriously, here's another question to throw in the mix. What year are the Boli PC and JL 2? In a Cuban that's going to affect whether or not the cigar is a premium in my eyes.

As to simplicity? 5 yes's and 2 no's (assuming young sticks). But you knew that. :headroll:

 

[MichiganM]

I don't know, we haven't agreed upon a definition yet. :grinFU:

Seriously, here's another question to throw in the mix. What year are the Boli PC and JL 2? In a Cuban that's going to affect whether or not the cigar is a premium in my eyes.

As to simplicity? 5 yes's and 2 no's (assuming young sticks). But you knew that. :headroll:

Haha, that's all I'm sayin then. My point may not be across the board perfect or right, but when it comes to a "general" agreement on what's premium and what's not most can understand. That's all I'm really gettin at.

I know that's a simple way to look at it, but I'm just tryin to get to the nitty gritty. Under a "general" blanket statement, you can usually assume what's a premium and what's not.

 

[Wasch_24]

Based on your objective opinion. <-----That should read Subjective Opinion...my bad.

 

[Greg]

Hand-rolled cigars are premiums, machine-made are not.

There, I win.

 

[Wasch_24]

:rofl:

 

[MichiganM]

Hand-rolled cigars are premiums, machine-made are not.

There, I win.

:thumbsup:

Finally, we have a winner! :clap:

:hysterica

 

[MichiganM]

Based on your objective opinion.

:scratchhe

No such thing as an objective opinion. If you have an opinion on something you're biased.